Struggling and not sure with what.

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#1 Oct 5 - 4PM
Anonymous (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Struggling and not sure with what.

Hi All,

I have struggled for the last few hours with knowing whether or not I should post here. Having read the boards for a few hours I now feel so confused that I don't know where else to turn.

I originally found my way here after a friend casually commented in response to some gripe I made about my ex 'he sounds like a narcissist to me Lib, have fun but don't believe a word he tells you...'

As the relationship 'progressed' I found myself feeling more and more perplexed at some downright bizarre behaviour but he managed to maintain a reasonable status quo and so we bimbled along until a summer holiday when the mask slipped, badly. I don't need to go into the details, but it wasn't pleasant. This was just three months into our relationship. I ended it, we got back together and things seem to go from bad to worse so I quit it once and for all.

Silence. Then two weeks ago he sent me a message stating that he did not want to lose me. I broke and replied. This was followed up by a plea for me not to give up on us, that he loved me, blah blah. I maintained no contact. Blocked him from my personal mobile/email.

A few days ago I received a letter from him, explaining that the home truths I told him led him to experience himself as unable to react properly so he suppressed these truths. He said he felt hurt by experiencing me as not wanting to give him affection because he felt my attitude was that he did not deserve it. He said that he understands why I felt hurt and this he feels led to a vicious circle of us both withdrawing from each other...he ends by saying that he was scared of an emotional intimacy he felt was developing and tried to fob it off as sexual but since our separation this is not working. He closes by asking me to decide what I would like to do and whatever I decide he will try and accept for he ultimately wishes for me to be happy, that everything I told him makes sense and he can become better towards me, but that if I choose to be with someone else he will try and accept this knowing it is my choice based on what I feel will make me happy.

I'm so confused. There is so much of him that doesn't fit with the descriptions here and so so much that does. And now this.

I know no-one here can tell me what to do and ultimately I was in the shit when it was shit and in the good when it was good. But it is because of the inconsistency that I now struggle to trust or believe him.

I cannot forget how badly he treated me, but through our conversations in making sense of it we were able to disentangle a lot of what went wrong.

We are far apart (which is actually a good thing)He closes with 'if you decide to give us a chance and you want me to, I will check flights, obviously consult with you and do all for us to be together, if you decide for us to work I want to try and understand all your doubts, fears and questions and remove the part I play in creating them, so hope you will tell me all, if you decide this.)

I don't know what to do, my heart is split as is my head.

Again I am not asking for what to do but I'd be very grateful for any thoughts that may help clear a very muddled head.

Thank you,
Liberty.

p.s. email/phone block- above via snail mail.

Oct 6 - 12AM
Marie
Marie's picture

Another ploy

Yes, I remember that "we seem to be withdrawing from one another " speech. This was after the first D&D. He stopped calling and we didn't see each other for the holiday that year. We had a date right before Christmas and he kept saying how busy I seemed that maybe we should see each other after the holiday. I had cleared my schedule for him so wasn't busy. When we got to the restaurant he tried to get me to order the food to go. It was so clear he just didn't want to be with me. And yes that was 3 months in right by the script. After the holiday I went back to life as usual because I hadn't grown that attached at that point. My first meeting with him, he acted at first huffy and seemed very annoyed with me. When I explained he seemed to be withdrawing he twisted it all around that he felt I was withdrawing from him. Now, were you withdrawing from him and if so why? It's important that you remember the specifics of the relationship and why you broke things off. You've broken off a number of times, it's a pattern and not a good one, so things never change. Is that what you want? When I pulled away after the last D&D it was so hard. I was so under his spell and the thought of not being with him ever again just killed me. I had long since been keeping a journal of the relationship because I had grown so unhappy but could never put my finger on it. The journaling made it clearer. I began to think he had dumped me, which he had but only because I had confronted him with all his lies. He dumped me before I could dump him and he already had a new source. But I wrote why it ended and listed the things that caused me to finally say enough so time wouldn't cloud my thinking. So really think about it.
Oct 6 - 3AM (Reply to #19)
Liberty (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Marie

Your question: 'Why you broke things off.' Is a very good one. He has never D & D'd me (at least my understanding of what this means, doesn't fit with my experience). If any thing I experienced myself as devaluing and discarding him (Christ what does that mean..Oh God) Anyway, I broke things off because we were just not compatible on an emotional level, he just couldn't do the adult bit, very good at child play. In explaining this to him he responds with that he can 'become better' and of course this fuels hope. I am really thinking about it and it's damn tough. I know I am giving him a chance in my mind- but be assured that I am giving nothing of me. Am I stupid?
Oct 6 - 3AM (Reply to #17)
Liberty (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Marie

Your question: 'Why you broke things off.' Is a very good one. He has never D & D'd me (at least my understanding of what this means, doesn't fit with my experience). If any thing I experienced myself as devaluing and discarding him (Christ what does that mean..Oh God) Anyway, I broke things off because we were just not compatible on an emotional level, he just couldn't do the adult bit, very good at child play. In explaining this to him he responds with that he can 'become better' and of course this fuels hope. I am really thinking about it and it's damn tough. I know I am giving him a chance in my mind- but be assured that I am giving nothing of me. Am I stupid?
Oct 6 - 6AM (Reply to #18)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Liberty

I know I am giving him a chance in my mind- but be assured that I am giving nothing of me. By "giving him a chance" you ARE giving your trust. A VITAL part of you. Not good. Get rid of him. This hope of yours is TOXIC. It is keeping you chained to an incurable pathological ~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Pathologicals only discard the best, most precious of gems of people... not the worst. They despise the strong, principled, decent & honest. Their discarding of you is then their highest commendation of your worth!" - A.V.
Oct 5 - 4PM
4joys (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Liberty

I won't be surprised if many of the members here comment that even this is so familiar to them. My exN said these words too! Yes! They are meant to confuse and make you dizzy. It's a diversion. Like a magician. Don't look here, look there! Liberty. Don't let this confuse you. He is manipulating you. He knows you well enough to put a string of words together that might help him get what he wants. This is why no contact is so important for us. How about not responding to this letter? I swear, my ex said almost the same thing. It amazes me. You are not unique. He's hoping you will feel unique and very well loved after he's done with you! And how is he able to still contact you? Change your email and phone number. PS. What "went wrong" is that he is an N! And you are not!
Oct 5 - 5PM (Reply to #15)
GhostBuster
GhostBuster's picture

So farmiliar, Liberty

I feel like I could have written your posting here. Seriously. My 1st N did the same thing. Great for the first few months, then mask slipped and I broke up with him. He got back in contact right away wanting another chance. We spent a month physically apart but talked about everything--what went wrong, why it won't happen again if we get back together, etc. We dissected everything. And you know what happened...we got back together a month later and BOOM! It was worse that it ever had been (after a brief honeymoon period). 3 months later, we broke up for good. Six month later, I got a letter in the mail from him saying he has changed, he realized how much he loves me, blah, blah, blah. Pleading to get back together. He closed with "please don't just ignore this letter. It could be the MOST important letter I've ever written!" Know what I did...I IGNORED it (after I laughed pretty loud). No acknowledgement of it, no reply, no nothing. By that time, I knew exactly what he was...an N. And like yours, he didn't fit every description. But enough of them. And he LOVED to make the ground move beneath me with push/pull, crazy making, gaslighting, empty promises to change, etc. It's not worth it to get back into that, I don't think, but I can't tell you what to do. When I didn't respond to his letter, he finally got the message. He hasn't contacted me since. Hallelujah! Best to you. I know it's a tough decision. But I know I made the right decision every day since. Freedom (and liberty!). :)
Oct 5 - 5PM (Reply to #2)
Ellen
Ellen's picture

mine flipped at 3 months too

Hi, My ex flipped at 3 months into the relationship. I thought wow he's crazy. Then i said oh hes just left his wife who's an alcoholic so hes having a hard time. Gosh looking back now i wish i had left then, instead 18 months down the line and a young daughter i discover he had let the mask drop that night and it wasn't a passing stressful time for him. I'm 7 months separated now and still with a whizzy head. Some things are becoming clear and emerging now. I will never want to go back to the earlier days after he left. The way he did it was for maximum effect. He was lovely when he was interested but that devalue bit was and is hurrendous. Knowing what i know now i would never hang around to experience that. How about just giving yourself time to ponder for a while before making a decision, things may move on without you really noticing. I must admit i don't envy your position right now (hey that means im not a narcissist -great). I'm glad my ex has let go so i have no choice but to move on. If you hang around long enough you can get to that part to. Unfortunately you will have to be gut wrenchingly disgarded first. yikes! blood sucking vampires excuse me i'm getting angry now b@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@glkdjlkfdfdkgfdphjrpodjgfdklgmdfklhmfdhklmfdbfdgbfdgbfdfgbfss
Oct 5 - 5PM (Reply to #3)
Liberty (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

No decisions- Ellen

"How about just giving yourself time to ponder for a while before making a decision, things may move on without you really noticing". Thanks Ellen, I guess this is the best way NC has ever been put...it is all I can do. It is so hard because the fucker is in therapy which makes it all the harder to know the level of change if at all. God this is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo HARD!!
Oct 5 - 6PM (Reply to #4)
4joys (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Liberty

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa, cowgirl! They cannot change! Therapy or no therapy! You are still under the fog of believing that he is normal!
Oct 5 - 6PM (Reply to #5)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Liberty - STOP THAT

NEVER EVER LISTEN TO WHAT THEY SAY!! Do not read their emails, listen to their calls, texts - NOTHING OBSERVE WHAT THEY DO!!!!! ACTIONS!!! http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/10/01/there-hope http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/04/15/toxic-hope http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/06/15/struggling-get-over-it they don't have to have ALL the traits to be N. Just a few is ENOUGH. http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/07/02/how-pathological-too-pathological http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/08/29/its-all-your-head You aren't alone: http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/07/18/are-feeling-facts http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/08/22/doubting-myself http://www.lisaescott.com/forum/2009/07/16/confused-am-i-wrong-about-him Even if he's not an N... the fact you are here and NOT FEELING GOOD WITH HIM OR ABOUT HIM - is HUGE!!! Everyone gets confused by these soul sucking vampires. Everyone. The only thing they get out of therapy - is better ways of luring, diverting and covering up their true predatory selves. http://howtospotadangerousman.blogspot.com/2008/06/reality-and-suffering.html http://howtospotadangerousman.blogspot.com/2007/08/predictibility-of-pathology.html http://howtospotadangerousman.blogspot.com/2008/09/characterlogical-disorders-he-is-what.html Right now he has you doubting yourself - RIGHT WHERE HE WANTS YOU. No contact!! RUN LIKE HELL!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Pathologicals only discard the best, most precious of gems of people... not the worst. They despise the strong, principled, decent & honest. Their discarding of you is then their highest commendation of your worth!" - A.V.
Oct 6 - 4AM (Reply to #13)
faith999
faith999's picture

Even if he's not an N.......

Liberty,I read these boards all the time but do not write very often. I have been following your story and felt compelled to write. I agree with Barbara.."Even if he's not an N... the fact you are here and NOT FEELING GOOD WITH HIM OR ABOUT HIM - is HUGE!!!" God knows Liberty I am certainly no authority on relationships but it seems that if your relationship is this hard already,N or not,it is probably not a good sign. I read an article today and found these couple of lines to be very true. By Karen Salmansohn 2 KEYS TO A HAPPILY-EVER-AFTER LOVE RELATIONSHIP 1. "Den of pleasure"—for fun, companionship, sex, laughter, etc. which you as a human need—so you can keep your soul alive with passion! 2. "Laboratory for growth"—the ultimate place of challenge for your soul to be nurtured to grow—where you inspire one another's "character development"—so you can both grow into your most esteemed selves - which is what Aristotle put forth was what true happiness was all about! Unfortunately, many people solely view a relationship as a place to experience pleasure—leaving out the soul-ly aspects of love—where you nurture each other to grow! .. I don't know about you but that certainly sounds good to me. I wish you well Liberty.
Oct 6 - 7AM (Reply to #14)
Liberty (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I feel so sad Even if he's not an N- (faith 999) it's hard work

Faith999, that you do not often write but took the time to address my distress (as I now feel it to become) is greatly appreciated. Thank you. I think this has been the most helpful aspect to bringing clarity to this mind of mine so terribly and painfully muddled mind. That is your validation of Barbara's comment that even if he is not a fully fledged N, the doubt, confusion, insecurity and generalised feeling of unhappiness needs no label. It is what it is and I deserve better. Why am I allowing myself to consider that this is 'good enough' for me. I know I deserve better. I am by and large a good person, I am kind and generous of self, I love and care easily, surely I deserve this in return? Thank you for taking the time to reprint for me the excerpt from the article you read. It made me feel very emotional reading it,it made me both sad in the awareness that I did not experience these things with this man and further that a part of me if I am honest with myself doubt that I will. This hurts but in a strange way it is a freeing hurt. I need to let go don't I and be free to have my lovability recognsied and honoured as I deserve. I feel so sad. Thank you Faith. Liberty
Oct 5 - 7PM (Reply to #6)
Amazed
Amazed's picture

They know what to say to break you down, tell you what you want

I read your post, I do not know what he initially did, he is only telling you what you want to hear so he can get what he wants and break you. Do not be fooled!
Oct 6 - 1AM (Reply to #7)
Liberty (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Doubt & Confusion

Thank you all for your thoughts and comments. It would seem as though his patter is a familiar one to you all here. Your generous sharing of such thoughts has raised some questions (please forgive the possible naivity inherent in them, but as I am sure is obvious this is all new and very bewildering for me so I am indebted to your wisdom). -Barbara, Thank you for posting the articles, all of which I have read and feel even more confused because they've caused me to think a lot.) The article that has that says we can find ourself at a place (where I am) holding 3 beliefs: - He is pathological - I don't want him to be pathological - He isn't pathological This describes perfectly where I am at. 1. Barbara, you say that he wants me to doubt myself. Why would he want this? 2. He has asked me to write to him expressing my doubts about him. Has anyone done so? Has anyone confronted their ex/current partner with the terms N or NPD and if so what happened. 3. A close friend of mine is an TA Therapist specialising in Narcissistic disorders of the self.She 'diagnosed' him on the basis of information I gave stating that he is a lot more mature than she would expect an N to be, good impulse control blah blah, but she said the question is, is this him adapting to you or authentic mode of relating. She said I should do nothing and see what he does next. So, Barbara, how do you listen to their actions? I find this a little tricky to get my head around. 4.Lastly (And I know this is an impossible question) but does everyone see this as a relationship without zero hope? Thank you,Struggling in London...
Oct 6 - 8AM (Reply to #12)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Liberty

1. Barbara, you say that he wants me to doubt myself. Why would he want this? They all want that - easier to hypnotize & control you when you doubt. Easier to make you feel sorry & sad for them and have TOXIC HOPE. Another reason for ZERO CONTACT. Planting seeds of doubt in you This game is akin to gaslighting, but I have dealt with it separately because this has a distinctly undermining quality about it whereas gaslighting is often disguised with a supposedly genuine concern. With sufficient put-downs and sufficient name-calling and insults, it doesn't take too long before you begin to doubt your own judgment and abilities. One of the most damning obstacles to overcome in holding onto your self belief is that you do at some point realise that your being with him proves the point. What I mean is, if you made the mistake of landing yourself in this position in the first place, then how can you possibly trust your judgment? - At some point and at some level, this thought has to occur, even if we refuse to acknowledge it. Often his arguments make sense, because he travels down such a winding path to make his point that you are no longer sure which way is up. He gets you to concede on points that do in fact support what he is saying and because he has your head in such a mess, you cannot see that the points he is raising may be true, but they are not actually valid or applicable in the present situation. By the time that you do realise it, the moment has passed and you are probably too scared to raise it in case it starts yet another ugly situation. He disputes and undermines your feelings, your thoughts and decisions. He uses every mistake that you make as evidence to support his case. He makes constant, often subtle, comments that break down your confidence - often by simply telling you over and over again that you are bad at something or incapable of something. Not only do you end up doubting yourself, but you also end up being more and more dependent on him. These games are often made to look like concern, compassion and caring, but they always contain a definite barb. In reality they are designed to keep sending you the message that you are incompetent and desperately need him. After all, he accepts you and loves you even though you are a nagging, helpless, useless, ugly blob. Who else would? http://www.cosmicwalk.co.za/games-doubt.html 2. He has asked me to write to him expressing my doubts about him. Has anyone done so? Has anyone confronted their ex/current partner with the terms N or NPD and if so what happened. http://www.lisaescott.com/2009/09/20/should-you-confront-narcissist-about-his-narcissism Tell him NOTHING!! NO CONTACT!!! 3. A close friend of mine is an TA Therapist specialising in Narcissistic disorders of the self. She 'diagnosed' him on the basis of information I gave stating that he is a lot more mature than she would expect an N to be, good impulse control blah blah, but she said the question is, is this him adapting to you or authentic mode of relating. She said I should do nothing and see what he does next. He's mirroring & adapting. Period. So, Barbara, how do you listen to their actions? I find this a little tricky to get my head around. LISTEN means in this instance OBSERVE. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER listen to their words. WATCH THEIR ACTIONS... and that includes PAST ACTIONS!!!! 4.Lastly (And I know this is an impossible question) but does everyone see this as a relationship without zero hope? If it isn't then why are you here? How many websites are you going to visit and ask the same question in 100 different ways HOPING for a different answer? What healthy man puts a decent woman through this much mental turmoil? He's not worth it. He's toxic. GET OUT & NO CONTACT! ~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Pathologicals only discard the best, most precious of gems of people... not the worst. They despise the strong, principled, decent & honest. Their discarding of you is then their highest commendation of your worth!" - A.V.
Oct 6 - 7AM (Reply to #8)
4joys (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Liberty, If you have this

Liberty, If you have this much confusion now, why bother entertaining the idea of a deep relationship with him? He has already waved his red flags. You have written here about them. How many red flags does this guy get? How many are you "worthy" of? Why do you feel you have to work so hard at forming a relationship with this man? I'm sensing a desperation in you. That maybe this is your only chance and you must work hard to make it healthy. But the truth is, it already is unhealthy. Wishing it to be different will never make it so. If you bend to his wishes and words now, he has pushed the unhealthy boundary forward and now he has more ammunition to hurt you more in the future. These types store away all the info about you in a part of their brain and then when they need the big guns, they open this up and spill it all out against you. He is not the last relationship that will come by your way.
Oct 6 - 9AM (Reply to #9)
Liberty (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Why this desperation to make it work-4joys

I am getting the sense that I am exasperating not only myself but you guys. You are right in your sense. There is a desperatedness to make it work and your attuning to and making verbal this sense has forced me to stop and think why. I know this is going to sound pathetic to so many of you here, and it's because there was much that I cannot forget that was so good and I suppose it is that that creates the desperateness. I guess what you have done is made me consider that perhaps with another I can have this without the hard work and wothout the need to feel desperate. I suppose there is the fear that what if I don't get that again. I know this irrational - it only took me a heartbeat to meet him and that's all it takes to meet another. Thanks, I get it. Liberty
Oct 7 - 6AM (Reply to #11)
4joys (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Keep posting Liberty

Dont stop posting here because you think you are exasperating us. We've all been there and need each other to make it through.
Oct 6 - 4PM (Reply to #10)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

we all had good stuff with

we all had good stuff with our Narcs & Ps. ALL OF US http://howtospotadangerousman.blogspot.com/2007/10/why-you-only-remember-good-stuff-of-bad_01.html if you think you are going to get the good times back by hanging in there? you are wasting your time, Liberty. http://www.lisaescott.com/2009/07/31/there-no-such-thing-safe-level-contact ~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Pathologicals only discard the best, most precious of gems of people... not the worst. They despise the strong, principled, decent & honest. Their discarding of you is then their highest commendation of your worth!" - A.V.