Can 2 N's be in a relationship ??

What I don't understand is how a normal person would want to be in anything like that with an N years after the realtionship would end. I have been NC for over a year with some contact, yet now that I really see what he is I would NEVER go back to that. OW in fact did go back after 4 years. She did go back under the guise of that they remained friends, which him and I are not and hopefully never will. I guess to her her toxic hope did work out in the end.... mine did not:(

Interesting question and one I believe is possible and maybe even necessary for them to maintain a long involvement with another dysfunctional person who will stay in a dysfunctional relationship. Some of us stay for others reason like family children cultural/social expectation or business connections. We know something is wrong and destructive about the relationship but at the time getting out could be more destructive and hurt many innocence people so we stay. Still others stay believing the many lies with hopes of a better tomorrow that never really comes. While I never had the chance to read this book yet I do look forward to reading it. Still I do believe that many pathological dysfunctional people do involved themselves with other people who also suffer from personality disorder(s) much like themselves but differ in type and pathological behavior. While this may not explain your situation I for one have witness this in my past relationship with my ex. In fact I saw how much her new partner shared many traits of her ex husband. My ex knew I was catching on to her many manipulating tactics and at some point would be leaving her so that she needed the upper hand (one-upmanship) by being the one to leave first. I personally believe this is but one of the reasons why she needed so much to find her “soulmate” and start this dysfunctional dance all over again but with someone more like herself. These people hide in the darkness of denial and when the light of truth gets too close they will flee it much like a vampire would flee the rising sun. The Narcissistic/Borderline Couple” New Approaches to Marital therapy by Joan Lachkar Product Description In this second edition to her groundbreaking book, Dr. Joan Lachkar ventures to go beyond narcissistic and borderline couples to a mélange of many other dyadic configurations. Updated to incorporate new literature and developments in the field of marital conflict that have taken place since the publication of the first edition, this book addresses the ever-changing faces and phases of narcissism within the context of marital treatment. Drawing from many different theoretical frameworks, mainly self-psychology (Kohut) and object relations (Klein), the works of D.W, Winnicott, and Kernberg are expanded to further explain why couples stay in painful, conflictual, never-ending relationships (traumatic bonding). An essential text for every clinician doing marital therapy, The Narcissistic/Borderline Couple offers an improved understanding of marital pathology within the framework of our changing world. Joan Lachkar has done it again. She has written a book of invaluable assistance to those working with the most difficult issue of managing the narcissistic personality. In her book, Narcissistic-Borderline Couple: A Psychoanalytic Perspective on Marital Treatment (1992), Lachkar defines the narcissistic-borderline couple as individuals who, when they are together, form a shared couple myth that gives rise to many collective fantasies. According to Lachkar, it takes two to tango and two to sustain a long-term relationship that involves abuse. She describes the intricacies of each pathology and demonstrates how different practice paradigms are needed for successful treatment. According to Lachkar, the narcissist responds most profoundly to the mirroring aspect of self-psychology while the borderline requires the containment provided by object relations theory. Lachkar presented a well documented and eminently helpful case describing the psychological dance the narcissist and borderline consciously or unconsciously enter into stirring up highly charged feelings that she feels fulfill many early, unresolved conflicts. In Lachkar's view, each partner needs the other to play out his or her personal relationship drama. Lachkar proposed that within narcissistic-borderline relationships there exists two developmentally stymied and arrested people who seduce, entice, or coerce one another into playing out certain roles, as they bring the past into the present, and play out their archaic experiences. Lachkar believes that due to the borderline's false self and compliant, chameleon-like personality, for a short time he or she is able to play-act at being the perfect mirroring object for the narcissist, but this role rapidly deteriorates. In any ongoing relationship drama between them, the narcissist requires a borderline to worship him or her and to fuel his or her insecure yet nascent self, and the borderline requires a narcissist in order to be constantly mirrored. In her current book, How to Talk to a Narcissist (2008), Lachkar continues her profound insight into the workings of the mind of the narcissist and presents a well thought-out basis for the observation that much has been written on narcissism but little attention has been paid specifically to how to communicate with a narcissist. Her stated purpose in writing this book was to help therapists, patients, and others who interact with narcissists become more aware of how they deal with the various types of narcissism, and to use language and techniques that will allow them to communicate more effectively with the complex personality of the narcissist. Lachkar's work encompasses many theoretical perspectives including Heinz Kohut and his theory of Self-Psychology and presents Self-Psychology's applicability to the narcissist personality, including a new approach that she has developed, called "empathology." In Lachkar's book, she emphasizes that various communication styles may be applicable to the types of narcissists described in the book, which includes the pathological narcissist, the malignant narcissist, the antisocial narcissist, the depressive narcissist, the obsessive-compulsive narcissist, the passive-aggressive narcissist, the artistic narcissist, and the cross-cultural narcissist, but she states that it is necessary to delineate the varying psychodynamic structures and qualitative distinctions of each personality type for effective treatment. For example, a pathological narcissistic may become personally injured when not properly mirrored or when his or her sense of specialness is not validated, whereas an antisocial narcissist may be insulted when exposed as having committed a criminal act, but show no feelings of guilt or remorse. In Lachkar's view, a pathological narcissist may share the same grandiose, omnipotent, and delusional aspects as the malignant narcissist but will not be deliberately sadistic or cruel. In her view, the common narcissist is most interested in finding self-objects to mirror and affirm the nascent self, and when these self-object needs are not available, will withdraw and isolate him or herself as well. It was noted throughout the book that all forms of narcissism are not static but are fluid and may shift, given the circumstances. Lachkar has created the concept of the V-spot, meaning the vulnerable spot that describes the emotional vulnerability that stems from early childhood injuries and is the product of early trauma that one unwillingly retains throughout adult life and which can be aroused by even the slightest event. In treating narcissist pathology in our practices, we have all experienced the personal trauma that even the most innocuous incident may trigger a full-blown negative reaction. Lachkar points out throughout the book how effective communication involves not only learning how to talk to the narcissist but also to understand and to help the narcissist understand what it is that disrupts communication and how to deal with it. This book makes some excellent observations, particularly the need within the therapist for tolerance of chaos and disorder. No patient comes in a neat package, but the narcissist in particular, requires "special handling." Although each chapter was excellent, two chapters will be highlighted: "The Depressive Narcissist" (p. 55) and the "Description of Women Who Chose to Stay with a Depressive Narcissist" (p. 57). In Lachkar's view, depressive narcissists usually "hook up" with personality types ranging from the caretaker, to the borderline, to the histrionic. Lachkar stresses that not all women who stay with the various narcissistic personalities are mentally disturbed or have a pathological disorder. In fact, many women stay for such primary reasons as the desire to have a home, to avoid the destruction caused by divorce, and to maintain a marriage, a social life, and an intact family. Interestingly, many consider divorce to be far more damaging than staying in an abusive relationship. Lachkar found that these women were frequently what she has referred to as "high-functioning women," women who have not been abused nor had traumatic childhoods. They stay for a greater cause, not wanting to destroy the lives of their children. Interestingly, they clearly understand how they are being mistreated but do not take it personally. This can be contrasted with the lower functioning woman who presents with a more severe pathology because she does internalize the negative projections and she does identify and personalize them. These are the women who have had abusive, traumatic childhoods and who tend to identity with the negative projections of the depressive narcissist. It is important to be aware that the depressed narcissist may misrepresent empathy as collusion with his or her apathy or victimization, and Lachkar stresses the importance of helping the depressed narcissist stay in contact and not loose identity. Additionally, depressed patients take on certain psychotic elements and tend to confuse a mental state by becoming it, instead of feeling it, which results in paralysis and must be addressed. It is important to help the depressed narcissist see him- or herself not merely as a partial object or as a disability but as a whole object, a real person who is valued or appreciated and to come to terms with the central underlining issues of the disorder. Another important chapter contains Lachkar's description of the treatment of the narcissistic artist and the special treatment points and therapeutic techniques necessary for treating the artistic temperament. In Lachkar's view, treatment consists of helping the artist understand how the grandiose self interferes with any interpersonal life or healthy object relations (p. 101) and how the very nature and culture of the performing arts industry is a readied platform for narcissistic injuries. Lachkar feels that it is essential to help the artist understand how destructive teachers, choreographers, conductors, or producers can enact and stir up archaic injuries from parental neglect and abuse, and how the artist develops special defense mechanisms in the service of the ego. In her formulation, the artist develops a protective layer against injury, learns "how to take it," learns how to manage criticism, judgment, corrections, pain, and adversary, and teaches him or her self how to get through anything without compassion or empathy for the self. In Lachkar's view, the advice that therapists can offer artists is that their over-emphasis on perfectionism destroys individuality and creativity and can produce robot-like results. It is the goal of the therapist to help the artist learn to not "put up" with abuse or take in the negative projections of others and to face personal shortcomings and not to blame others, to learn to focus on strengths rather than weaknesses, and most of all, to enjoy one's art and make it playful. The book consists of ten chapters: His Majesty the Narcissist, The Pathological Narcissist, The Malignant Narcissist, The Antisocial Narcissist, The Depressive Narcissist, The Obsessive-Compulsive Narcissist, The Passive-Aggressive: The "Poor Me" Victim, The Narcissist the Artist, The Cross-Cultural Narcissist, and Recapitulation and Closing Thoughts. This book is an excellent resource for clinicians at all levels of their professional training and reinforces the point of view that communicating with a narcissist is not a simple task. The book will be valuable for persons with narcissistic personalities as well, although without a background in understanding personality development from a clinical point of view the lay public might mistakenly feel that dealing with this personality style is easier than it actually is. Lachkar believes that without a new approach, particularly without the empathology language that she has developed, narcissists and their partners are doomed to continue their never-ending dance of miscommunication and frustration. In closing, (p. 136) Lachkar states that this book has been written with great respect for the cast of characters involved and with much hope that it will promote a heightened awareness of the need for sensible, thoughtful communication that leads to healthy, intimate, lasting, loving relationships. I believe that she has certainly achieved her goal of presenting a unique perspective and I join her in hoping that it helps ease the pain of dealing with this most difficult personality pathology. Marilyn N. Metzl, PhD is a psychoanalyst in private practice in Kansas City, Missouri and is faculty and supervisor with the Kansas City Institute for Contemporary Psychoanalysis. Reference: Lachkar, Joan (2008). How to Talk to a Narcissist. New York: Routledge, p. 160. Lachkar, Joan (1992). The Narcissistic/Borderline Couple: A Psychoanalytic Perspective on Marital Treatment. London: Taylor and Francis: p. 218. http://www.amazon.com/Narcissistic-Borderline-Couple-Approaches-Marital/dp/0415934710

He will not make it with anyone...everyone bores them after a while. I've given up on trying to understand what "motivates" them; they are twisted :-)!!! Based on your description of the OW, I say they deserve each other. He left a good woman for someone who apparently is lost. I think it will be short lived because if they are both Ns, they are too selfish and will not be able to satisfy they NEED for attention. I am glad to have my XN out of my life now but then again, its been three years since my b/u. You too will at one point or another see things sooo much different! Good luck sweetheart...