I need a clue (and to get it all out -- again)

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#1 Apr 27 - 2PM
7yeaeritch
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I need a clue (and to get it all out -- again)

Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm going to beat a dead horse.

I cannot see it. I just cannot. And I'm sure I need help. I wrongly posted my story a few days ago, asking for insight as to whether or not my NARC is a NARC. I was told yes. But I keep reading and reading (and thinking and thinking), and I just don't see it. And if it's true, I know I won't truly get better until I do see it.

My Narc (as far as I know since we've lived in different cities for 20 of the 40 years we've known each other), has never been hypo-sexual. He's never rubbed my face in anything, screamed at me, called me names, threatened me with anything (except the withdrawal of himself), has had very few relationships that any of his old friends know of anyway, including me (and I know the most because it used to seem he told me everything). That's what I read a lot here. What I see is my fault, my fault, my fault. I realize he has been wrong; he has been imperfect. He was worse than that when he asked me to marry him, got angry because I wanted input into when we married, and cut off contact with me to the extent that when I drove the 10 hours one way to see him, he wouldn't let me in his house -- me in a strange city, in a neighborhood whose safety I couldn't be sure of, he didn't make sure I had some place to sleep, knew the way home or had the money to get home. Even in honor of our since we were 7 friendship, he should have done those things. Just as a human being, he should have done those things. I realize he needs help just because of that one incident. One other time when I became desperate because he was saying he wanted us to become closer while he pulled steadily away, had been sending me presents monthly and suddenly didn't send me a Christmas present of all things or even acknowledge the Christmas present I sent him and I got more desperate, he stopped talking to me for over 2 years. I think that was hurtful and something I would never do to a friend or even acquaintance. But I see my desperation as being something he could not emotionally tolerate. We all have thresholds, and I was asking him to tolerate an emotional height he just could not scale. We can't be what we aren't. We can't give what we don't have it in us to give. I was asking him to be someone he wasn't. I do think he is troubled (or maybe another word?)in that every time we end things, when he comes back, we never, ever even mention what happened before. The only conversation we've ever had about the 2 years was "You have to be less emotional." Me: ok. I'm always scared to try to talk more for fear it will make him run. Last Feb, when he asked me consider marriage, he told me the reason he had stopped talking to me for 5 months after I had visited him last summer was because he felt he had failed at our relationship because I wouldn't follow that trip up with a vacation to NY -- which I wouldn't because I spent hundreds of dollars going there, tried so hard to be perfect (not letting my smile falter when he took me into his dirty home (maybe he had bothered to clean; maybe that was clean for him) or didn't even smile hello or almost missed our meeting time because he scheduled a dr's appt for the same time or didn't offer to pay for dinner 2 days before my birthday), and then he ended the night by criticizing me and I got angry (and I know anger is a choice; he did not make me angry) because I felt let down when the evening was over that it had gone no where when I had had such high hopes and allowed my disappointment to lead me into an exchange of words with him over my not wanting to sleep in his dishevelled guest bedroom but on his living room floor. Anyway, I had hopes and tried to be perfect and we couldn't get through one day without having a silly argument over something I should have been smarter than to have an argument about. How do you argue with someone you've longed for for 3 years about their wanting you to sleep in their guest room -- an offer they'd never made anyone else? My fault. Then he pulled away again and didn't even tell me Happy Birthday which made me feel like an idiot for making such an effort to go see him just 2 days earlier, so I pulled out of NY. A 5 minute conversation could have resolved this, but he would not have it. I know he goes home and does not even contact his sister or see his only nephew and she has cried a lot over him. I know his best friend died, asking him to take care of his children when he was gone and he has never even seen them since, not even when one ended up going to college where he lives -- not even to offer him rides to the airport or anything -- and they and their mother are very hurt. I know his childhood best friends say they have called him and not heard back from him for years and they have laid awake at night, wondering what they did to ruin their relationship with him. (In fact, I know they are currently going through a period like that because we have mutual childhood friends whom I will not cut off because of NC). I know I hurt because he asked me to be on FB because he had no "real friends" on FB and we could communicate better (right after the 2 year drought), but he sent all his 400 FB friends birthday and holiday greetings on there but, seemingly, me. He sent them condolescens when family died but not a word when my family died (maybe he can say something quick and off the cuff to them but would have to be more emotional, lengthy, sincere with me and can't be). He has 400 FB friends who seem like genuine friends, when I had thought he was so friendless ("why would you buy me a deck of cards in a leather case when you know I don't entertain?" -- answer: because you told me you wanted a deck of cards in a leather case), but one girl posted the hundreds of dollars of exotic blue roses he sent her and said he was her best friend. So he lies (but he says now they aren't close; she's mistreated him; friends have told him she said she was going to take him for everything he had (he has money)and he was writing her a "our friendship meant a lot to me while it lasted letter" -- but the last time I looked on FB (a month ago, yeah me), they were still listed as friends. But why does she value a goodbye letter and I don't? What have I done that's worse than tell people I was going to use him as she did? I've never done anything but try to be accepting and love him, and drain him emotionally I know. No letter to me because it would incite further drama he thinks? In fact, why so quickly no more talk of marriage? What did I do that was so bad (now, I think that's the crux of my question, my hurt)? Was it that I drove to see him without permission (which I had asked for but he wouldn't answer me)? I'm sure he thinks that is inappropriate (a word he's leveled at me several times). Is it because I wanted a say in the terms of our possible marriage? Ok, no wedding. Why can't we even talk? What did I do that is so bad that we can't even talk? What did I do? Even now that he has told me he isn't sure if he ever wants to ever talk to me again, I think maybe he's saying this because he sees that every time we try to have a relationship (and we've tried 4 times -- I'm still not sure why the 1st time didn't work because he won't talk about it) we both end up hurt. Maybe he's just insightful enough to accept that what we feel for each other is not enough and we should stop hurting each other. I hear my friends, one and all, telling me that I've let myself become a little puppy that he kicks and still comes running when he calls; I've heard my psychologist friend say he's abusing me (the post 10 hour drive thing was abuse; I agree). But does being emotionally limited, not empty, make him a NARC? He was there for me constantly as a friend for decades until I suggested we try a relationship as I was finally beginning to have feelings for him when it had long been suspected by my friends, my ex-husband and me that he had feelings for me. He seemed so friendless. I knew people from home rolled their eyes about him behind his back and thought he didn't realize it. He is quirky, odd, but, I thought, so willing to listen, so giving, so artistic, avant garde, intelligent, interested in so many things. I've never felt great acceptance; I thought this brought us together, gave us a commonality. Every time we have tried getting together, he pulls away almost immediately. I panic because I have abandonment issues. My panic scares him emotionally and it's over. That's our pattern -- does that make him a NARC? I think it just makes me too obsessed with not being abandoned again. See maybe he's not a NARC; maybe he's "just not that into me". Maybe he thought he was when he said he would always take care of me, that he had wanted to be with me for decades before we tried our first relationship, when he wrote that he would drive anywhere to spend just 15 minutes with me, when he used to send me flowers (but not exotic blue roses) just to cheer me up (he hasn't given me anything since before the 2 year silence -- he said, both birthdays, that he had been planning something big (a trip to the US Open the first time; unstated the 2nd time)that he couldn't pull together in time and then we stopped talking (well, we didn't stop talking after my birthday in 2009 actually). Anyway, I feel a little better just having gotten out that what I really feel is that he's not a NARC and I don't have the valid reasons for hurting that you all have; I've just made too many mistakes by getting so emotional (if I've wanted him for 7 years, why didn't I just say ok to his marriage conditions and see what happened -- anything could have happened; why did I say something that his best friend says surely made him feel like I was turning down the only time he'd ever offered himself to someone when he'd just told me the 5 month silence was because he felt I was saying he'd failed? My fault, my fault. What is wrong with me?) It's not what's wrong with him; it's what's wrong with me. There. I got it all regurgitated out. I'm mad at myself. That's my bottom line. Everyone else tries to stop themselves from forgiving their NARC. I don't feel the need to forgive him (except for his reaction to my 10 hour drive); I have to find a way to forgive myself for messing up this thing I've wanted forever.

Apr 29 - 8AM
Deidre40
Deidre40's picture

In every relationship, with a

In every relationship, with a narc or not...both people have to work at it. That said....in reading through your story here. I do not see a loving man. Does that make him a narc? No. Not in and of itself. But, he doesn't love you. That is why you need to let go of this man. Love doesn't pull away...let a loved one travel a long distance and ignore her...not give a rip if she is alive or dead...abandon her over and over...give her silent treatment...give her ultimatums if she doesn't marry him. That ain't love. You may have abandonment issues...and so do I. But, you didn't deserve this treatment. I don't know enough to label him a narc. But, he definitely doesn't belong in your life. At the end of the day--if we feel like trash, because someone steps on us over and over...isn't that enough to stay away from him/her? You matter. Your feelings matter. Driving 10 hours to be treated like crap...ignored...whatever...shows he is an asshole, in my eyes. No good man would do that. And he was once your friend? Right. I don't mean to sound flip. But, we spend a lot of time worrying if someone is a narc or not. When we should be looking at...how do I feel the majority of the time around this person? If the answer to that is ''bad,'' then...it's time to move on. It's hard to let go of relationships...even toxic ones. But, this is toxic. Brings you little to no joy. I would cut the cord...and not look back. {{{hugs}}}
Apr 29 - 6AM
Free-at-Last
Free-at-Last's picture

A Clue for You

"Every time we have tried getting together, he pulls away almost immediately. I panic because I have abandonment issues. My panic scares him emotionally and it's over. That's our pattern -- does that make him a Narc?" 7yearitch, you admit to having abandonment issues and he very obviously has intimacy issues. This is a recipe for relationship disaster; you're just not good for each other, because you each trigger the other's issues! I think that this is the essential clue that you're looking for. Sure, there are some signs of possible narcissistic behavior, but I think they pale compared to the huge abandonment versus intimacy problem. And of course, he *is* going to react differently towards other women who don't have abandonment issues, because they don't trigger his fear of intimacy so abruptly. I think you need to abandon all hope that any satisfying relationship is possible with him. Find someone who is more patient and accepting of your issues and/or seek therapy to help you better deal with your own issues. [Warning! male perspective] I'm a guy, and I can honestly say that I and most other emotionally healthy men do get rather uncomfortable when a woman suddenly starts exhibiting desperate and needy behavior. But healthy men don't respond by withdrawing for a year or more or not sending Christmas gifts; instead, for us it's a red flag that maybe we should begin gently and carefully steering the relationship back into the "friend zone." [end of male perspective] So I do suggest that you consider the therapy route; it will greatly widen your options when it comes to meeting compatible men. And please, give up on the dead horse! Don't torture yourself any longer. Be kind to yourself.
Apr 29 - 8AM (Reply to #27)
Used
Used's picture

free-at-last

i have huge abandoment issues, but the narc didnt know it, and neither do any outsiders, so tho i see what you are saying, i hide so well,that the few people i have told are amazed when i tell them, bottom line wether she had abandoment issues or not, this SCUMBAG will do what he is going to do, this is who he is.
Apr 29 - 8AM (Reply to #21)
Hunter
Hunter's picture

Free at Last

Ok guy, what's your story? Hunter
Apr 29 - 8AM (Reply to #22)
Free-at-Last
Free-at-Last's picture

to Hunter

In brief, I got narc'd like most people here, but by a woman. I'm two months out of it after a year and a half in the relationship. The first five months were paradise, but then I moved in with her and things began to slowly degrade, and really accelerated to pure hell when things began to get difficult with her divorce (which began shortly before I met her). I went through a few rounds of D&D and hoovering, until I finally couldn't take it any more, packed up and left. Note that her divorce is still in progress (and I'm ashamed to say that I foolishly supported and helped her with it), and is now longer than our entire relationship. She has refused two reasonable settlement offers, and clearly wishes to soak him for as much money as she can. Maybe one day I'll write up the complete story (most of it is already posted in bits and pieces at www.shrink4men.com), but for now, I can assure you than female narcissists are as equally cruel as their male counterparts, and even more subtle and sneaky with their manipulation tactics. Over at the shrink4men site, there are several women (plus a couple of lesbians) and I've found that other points of view are very refreshing and remarkably useful. One of the reasons I joined here was in the hope that my perspective could be helpful.
Apr 29 - 8AM (Reply to #23)
Hunter
Hunter's picture

Free at last

Thank you & welcome, I'm sorry you are here, maybe a nice guy like you could meet one of these nice girls here and we can celebrate a real Royal Wedding! My narc is a huge asshole, they all are ,Man or women! The rules are the same! Since we are chicks some of us are a bit sensitive so be gentle! Again welcome and all of us would love your input on this subject! Happy Narc Free Weekend!
Apr 29 - 9AM (Reply to #24)
Free-at-Last
Free-at-Last's picture

to Hunter (and 7yearitch)

Hunter, thanks for the warm and kind welcome. I'll do my best to be gentle. I'd like to point out a couple of things about myself. I was raised by loving parents in a totally low-conflict family. I had no clue that such evil people existed, let alone how to defend myself against them. I'm soft-spoken, calm and slim – to the point that I sometimes get hit on by gays. I've recently learned that these are all characteristics that make me succulent prey for narcissists, and now that I know what to look out for, I hope I'll never have to go through such an ordeal again. This has in fact been my second "relationship" with a narcissist. Several years ago, I suffered a medically-diagnosed burnout at the hands of what I now understand to be a narcissistic (male) boss. I underwent eight months of therapy, where I learned that I have a tendency to take on too much responsibility. My therapist helped me immeasurably to understand reasonable limits and what I could and could not be held accountable for. It's precisely that which got me professional life back on track, and also why I left my N. Over time, she slowly abdicated all responsibility for herself and blamed everything on me. She actually expected me to be fully and completely responsible for her happiness (just like my former boss raged at me because his lousy year-end bonus was all my fault). So I'm a firm believer in therapy, and I think 7yearitch would do remarkably well – she has the same self-questioning mindset that I did, and that's exactly what's needed to progress quickly. When I suggest therapy, it isn't meant to insult anyone, it's because I truly think that they could benefit from it. I've been there, and if I see that I stop progressing in my recovery, I'll be back at the therapist's office right away. I smiled when you mentioned a "Royal Wedding" – right now, like so many others here, I too have a lot of work to do on myself. My ex-N drove me to the brink of physical and emotional exhaustion, and I actually starting seeing the same burnout symptoms from several years ago. It's only been a few weeks since the cloud has begun to lift, and I know I still have a long way to go. Thanks again, Hunter. Best wishes to you, 7yearitch. And a happy N-free weekend to all.
May 3 - 1PM (Reply to #26)
7yeaeritch
7yeaeritch's picture

Thanks for the suggesetion,

Thanks for the suggesetion, Free at Last. I didn't take it as an insult. Believe me, I believe in therapy -- been there, done that, doing that.
Apr 29 - 9AM (Reply to #25)
Hunter
Hunter's picture

Free at Last

You Rock! Hunter
Apr 27 - 3PM
rochkevin
rochkevin's picture

I have friends that treat me

I have friends that treat me like crap. They are not my friends anymore. I will not put up with crap anymore from people that i know that dont care about me, or treat me badly!! I dont care if they are a Narc, borderline or just a jerk...
Apr 29 - 8AM (Reply to #19)
Deidre40
Deidre40's picture

rochkevin

Yep--this right here! Well said...!!
Apr 27 - 6PM (Reply to #18)
Ladydb123
Ladydb123's picture

Rochkevin

I am with you all the way...So we need to change some words. I Have Had some false friends that treated me like Crap. Our new Slogan is: "Not Here and Not Today".
Apr 27 - 3PM
Ladydb123
Ladydb123's picture

7Year

My new friend you are in denial...... You just listed a host of mean and cruel things that this man has done to you and others for years.....400 friends on FB. But can't call you on your birthday.....I was in denial for a year, started reading about Narc's last year and made excuses that he was just under alot of stress and pressures. You keep beating yourself up, Why? No I don't think all Narc's are physically absusive but they can sure dish out the emotional abuse. However, they are hot and cold go MIA for days, months and years...... I am and many others are here for you. Keep reading, posting. It is truly hard to accept that a person you love and care about is crazy. We all understand the pain you are in right now.
Apr 27 - 3PM (Reply to #15)
7yeaeritch
7yeaeritch's picture

Hi, friend. You think I'm in

Hi, friend. You think I'm in denial? I think I'm trying the opposite -- to not be in denial and place this all on him when my own issues have to be owned.
Apr 29 - 1AM (Reply to #16)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

7 year itch...

When dealing with a narc, rational rules do not apply, please see my blog article today on this point. When dealing with a personality disordered person, thier disorder TRUMPS assignment of blame. Hugs!
Apr 27 - 3PM
momoya
momoya's picture

NO ONE is perfect

Real Love doesn't require us to be perfect. Narc or Not - you need to let this guy go and work on YOU. all the best

momoya

Apr 27 - 3PM (Reply to #13)
7yeaeritch
7yeaeritch's picture

Exactly, Momoya. I need to

Exactly, Momoya. I need to work on me. I do need to let him go -- well he's gone; that's done; he's taken himself away regardless of what I want. Let him go in my heart. I've started that -- I need to keep working on that, but his not being in my life really hurts much less than it did. I don't need, I think, I think, to focus on his issues (he did one unforgivable thing and a bunch of petty ones). The real issue is to work on me, my part in this not working and not his part. Thanks for responding.
Apr 27 - 3PM
Hunter
Hunter's picture

7yr ich

I read your story! I'm sorry! Step back from this person and see the truth! Read Boderline personality, he sounds more BPD. Read everything you can! He is an abuser and you don't need that in your life! Hugs Hunter
Apr 27 - 3PM (Reply to #2)
7yeaeritch
7yeaeritch's picture

I know you read my story --

I know you read my story -- thanks again, Hunter. I don't think he's Borderline -- maybe avoidant traits mixed with narcisstic. And it's not that I don't see that he has issues and problems and is not good for me. It's just that I think the major problem is me, not him. I look back at our relationship and it looks like me inhaling/exhaling drama and him backing away from the drama. I'm trying not to blame him if he doesn't deserve it but to take responsibility for my own part, which was the bigger issue up until that miserable drive. I'm trying to make myself accept that and begin from there.
Apr 27 - 3PM (Reply to #3)
Hunter
Hunter's picture

Honey, it's not you! If you

Honey, it's not you! If you would like to talk this out PM. I give u my # Look what you did what he did. What he is what u r. It doesn't matter! You are not good for each other! Sometimes it's hard to let go. I think now is a good time. Try NC for a bit and ask us a lot of questions. The girls are pretty smart :) Hunter
Apr 27 - 3PM (Reply to #4)
7yeaeritch
7yeaeritch's picture

But, Hunter, don't you think

But, Hunter, don't you think sometimes you have to accept that it is you (in this case me)? That's the problem with narcs -- they never accept it (well, one of their problems). (Now, my true feeling is that everyone should feel sorry for him for putting up with me. Whew. That took some digging to get out and honestly say.)
Apr 27 - 3PM (Reply to #5)
Hunter
Hunter's picture

7yr

When most get here they say the exact same thing! He has brainwashed you into believing it's you! If it's you why does he come back for more? Once he gets too close he pulls away. He's even subjected you to years of silence ( which is also abuse) I wish I had a magic wand to fix this but that only happens In Hollywood! Start by re reading your story 100x! If I wrote that what you say to me about this situation? Read up On The silent treatment, psychopaths, borderline and if your on FB check out Sam Vaknin! You need to look the devil in the face an see him for what he is! Hunter
Apr 28 - 6AM (Reply to #6)
7yeaeritch
7yeaeritch's picture

Thanks, Hunter

Thanks, Hunter
May 2 - 9PM (Reply to #7)
7yeaeritch
7yeaeritch's picture

Thank you all for all your

Thank you all for all your comments. I've been going through a true blue period and been in absentia, but I'm coming out of it. What I think today is that there is just no excuse for the way he treated me when I drove to Raleigh. He's troubled. He needs help. But my overall view of our relationship is that-- during the romantic parts anyway - I said no too many times. No to Paris twice, no to New York, no to the engagement under his conditions. I was thinking about what a roller coaster I've felt myself to be on and it occurred to me that I bet he's felt that way too by my yes's and no's. And I know, in my case anyway, that I am drawn towards men who are narcs because my father was and I have such unworked-out father issues. I keep trying to symbolically work them out through someone who is like my father. I really, really believe we almost all do that -- almost. So today I feel better because it just all makes more sense to me and because it is so important to me to accept my share of the blame and not just point my finger. Now, tomorrow, who knows what I think. Still haven't broken NC time, even have had moments in which I've felt really really free of him viscerally. Tomorrow, I may want to take to my bed again. The roller coaster may resume. But thank you for all your help in getting me this far.
May 3 - 5AM (Reply to #8)
Hunter
Hunter's picture

7yr

You said no for a reason. My bet is you wouldn't have made it there anyway. The never follow thru with anything. Hunter PS Stop taking the blame
May 3 - 6AM (Reply to #9)
7yeaeritch
7yeaeritch's picture

I'm trying to just take my

I'm trying to just take my fair share. But I'll ponder it more (I'm sure) and maybe figure finally that you're exactly right.
May 3 - 10AM (Reply to #11)
Hunter
Hunter's picture

7yr

Keep reading! Hunter. :)
May 3 - 6AM (Reply to #10)
Ladydb123
Ladydb123's picture

7 Year

I am just to glad that you came back to the boards. At least you are thinking about and searching your memories of what happened in your hot & cold relationship. You even said it this time, there is something very troubled about the man. Glad you are back!!! (Hugs)