Is my best friend one also?

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#1 Oct 31 - 3PM

PhoebeR

Is my best friend one also?

Hello all,
I have not been on in awhile but i hope everyone is doing well. I divorced my N husband in April and I am doing ok. Adjusting to life on my own again and learning to being single again, i have started seeing someone and he is the most unselfish person i know, so i am hopeful.
My issue is my friend of over 15 years. She has gone thru a lot herself over the last year, she lost her mom in December. After not have not lived in the same city for years, we are finally in the same place. She is working at a new job that i helped her get. The plan all along was to have her live with me, to help both of us financially. So i made adjustments to my home and invited her and her two small dogs to live with me. I live about an hour outside the city where we both work, and my normal commute to work work is about an hour, a fact she knew. So after 3 weeks she tells me at dinner that she is moving out, and had found a place closer to work, and signed a lease 2 days earlier. So, she left, but because the cost to live in the city is so high, her place is tiny and she asked me to keep her stuff for her in my home. And because i have a problem with confrontation i agreed. Since then things have been strained in our friendship. She house sat for me once, and invited a man over she had known 2 weeks to stay, without telling me. This is just i think a pattern of selfishness. Every conversation she and i have starts with " I think you should.." fill in the rest.

She has trouble with commitment, an gets scared when others get too close. Impatient. Has sex with men she "dates" after usually the 3rd date. Expects others to follow her and do what she wants, and when you don't she pouts and gets angry.

My therapist says she is definitely selfish, but is she also a N? Thoughts?

#2 Nov 28 - 10AM

PhoebeR

More odd behaviour

So, I took everyone's advice and did not invite my friend to hang out with me and my "new" love interest, or should i say i uninvited her. I had a great time without her and I was relieved. Thanks for everyone's help. But it get's weirder and weirder. She has quickly moved in with the guy she has been seeing 2 months. They decided to rent a house 10 minutes from me, just as long of a commute as it would be if she was still living with me. She said he would take care of her dogs and drop her off at the train station, he packed her old apartment for her, and unpacked the new house. Not once did i hear her mention what she has done for him throughout this whole thing. She also could not understand why her old apartment manager was mad she broke her lease. She justified it by saying "its in a good area, i don't know why he is so mad, he will rent it right away". Apparently this is all about her, once again. She asked me if she was making a mistake, I was careful with my words, because i know i would have gone off on her about everything. I have a problem with confrontation. So I said well financially it makes sense. That's all i could say. Should i have said more? The one I worry about most is him, he is a nice guy and see him getting sucked in to her selfishness. But is it really my business?

#3 Nov 28 - 10AM (Reply to #20)

MsVulcan500

Hi Phoebe,

Yes, this "friend" definitely sounds like one to stay away from! Sure she had the new guy help her move, and sure the old landlord shouldn't be upset that she broke her lease. Ummm, that's why landlords make leases. It's a contract so they can count on that income. It's great when you notice the sense of calm you have when the narc isn't around. Everything is just so much nicer! You find yourself laughing and smiling, and not worrying about saying something that will set the narc off. As far as her guy is concerned, he unfortunately needs to find his own way. While she is unhealthy for you, and is most likely unhealthy for him, it really isn't your business. If he asks, you'll have to think of something then, but for now let it go.

#4 Dec 3 - 9PM (Reply to #21)

PhoebeR

The rest of her stuff

So, now that my friend has moved in with the guy she has known for a few months, she needs to come by my house tomorrow to get the rest of her things. Like a dummy I agreed to keep her stuff here while she lived in the one room place she quickly moved in to after she left my place. She asked me when i was out of town for the holiday if she could come by the weekend after Thanksgiving, this upcoming weekend, I said ok. Two days later she calls to ask, if she can come by the on the 28th, a whole week earlier then we agreed to on the call. I told her, that would not work for me, since i am just getting back from the holiday, and i was leaving the following Monday on business. She says Ok. Then the afternoon before i leave on my business trip she calls to ask if she can come by while I am out of town. WTF! I said, no, the following weekend would be better. So, that day is tomorrow. Now, i know it's her stuff, but i thought we agreed and the whole week she has been a huge pain in my booty. But again, it's all about what she needs. She says, well i don't want to inconvenience you. Too late. Now that the stuff will be gone, i guess i don't know where the friendship goes from here but at least i am not responsible for for her things anymore, and I am no longer serving as a storage unit. The whole thing is aggravating and annoying, and also really hurtful, we expect men to be take advantage, but when its a woman and a friend it seems to hurt more.

#5 Nov 18 - 8AM

Ava

New glasses post-N....Wow!

Wow. This thread has just hit on something I've been thinking about recently. PhoebeR, I don't know if your friend is a narc but she certainly sounds like someone who is not at all good for you & if your spidey sense is telling you things are a little off - definitely, definitely listen to it. Since my N relationship & the post d&d learning curve, I've seriously been considering the possibility that my sister is a narc. I've felt guilty for thinking it, she's my only sister, only sibling and, well she's family. I've been loathe to compare her to the exN, raging ass that he is. But regardless of giving her the label, she is incredibly selfish, self-centred, always been disruptive in the family when she wasn't getting enough attention [seen her throw child-like tantrums as a grown adult], only makes contact when she wants something & is hardly ever there for anybody else, has a history of several, very turbulent relationships where she always, always plays the victim, I've witnessed some outrageous manipulation on her behalf & she's not seen anything really wrong with it, she works as an assistant in a govt agency but tells stories as if she runs the place & is incredibly draining to be around.... And just had a scary memory - during an argument with the exN once I remember telling him that he reminded me of my sister.... I grew up learning to be accommodating to her [she's older than me] and for a long time the family attitude was "oh poor sister, she's having trouble with school, friends, blah - try to help her out Ava, she's really upset." I became the listener, the advice giver, the carer. My father did the same. And she would suck the life out of us - hours on end listening to her talk about her latest boyfriend & how he'd been mean to her. My schoolwork suffered, my friendships suffered, then my job suffered, then my partnerships suffered, then my bank balance suffered [$800 per month phone bills during one particular "drama"]. I think I always knew it was extremely selfish but she was my sister & it was my family duty & I love her. And I was the "only one who understood her, the only one she could talk to" - her words, and I just shivered typing that. I used to feel guilty if I wasn't there for her, like I was failing my family purpose - and if I didn't listen to her she'd get at my Dad & he had enough to worry about. And when I did listen to her, did the sister duty, I'd get praise & thanks from my parents. And somewhere in my head every time I thought "if I just help her out of this drama then her problems will be fixed, she'll stop focussing on herself, she'll start being nice & I'll get a sister." But it never happened. Now I hardly talk to her anymore. She lives in another state & I screen most of her calls. Four years ago my father, the gentlest, kindest, most wonderful man, died. And she wasn't there. She wasn't there when he was diagnosed with cancer, for his last Christmas [that we all knew would be the last], for any of his treatment, or at the end when he was admitted to hospital for the last time. She flew over for the funeral, the small service that my father had wanted including only my mother, my sister & myself [which was the entire family]. Three days later she hopped on the back of a motorbike with her boyfriend for a cross-country road trip while my mother & I sorted out all the will, estate paperwork, official notifications etc. Next time we heard from her was a phone call a while later with her wanting consolation because she felt her boyfriend wasn't caring enough re. her grief. This was one of the last straws for me & a big fat wake-up call. But. But. I still did the hours-long listening / advising phone calls on & off over the last couple of years. The guilt if I ignored her was still there, the sense of duty was still there & the hope that maybe I could still help was still there. Until.... well this last year. The year post d&d from ExN. Somewhere in my learning through all this I've starting realising that I can't "fix" her problems, that its not even my responsibility , that all these years have been energy draining & akin to me banging my head against a wall. And I've also thought that growing up with her, growing used to her, may have been part of the reason why I missed / ignored so many red flags with exN. And narc or not - I think its the New Glasses!! And I just took ages to write that. Ooops! Sorry for the purge!! Ava xxo

Ava

#6 Nov 18 - 1PM (Reply to #13)

Briseis

Ava

Check out "borderline personality disorder". It is closely related to NPD, it's in the same classification, in fact. You'll have times where you want to rip the new glasses off your face, but they won't come off :D . Once you see it, you can't UNsee it. People with any personality disorder baffle psychiatrists and to date there are only a few treatments for them, and NONE of the treatments target NPD. So if they baffle and fool US, we are just responding NORMALLY.

#7 Nov 19 - 11PM (Reply to #14)

Ava

Thanks Briseis - I will do that

I've heard a little about BPD & actually have a friend who is currently suffering through a working relationship with a woman who has apparently been diagnosed with BPD. I’ve not really looked into it yet though but your words & suggestion is giving me a kick to examine this a bit more seriously & thoroughly. I've been avoiding really considering it for a while - misplaced guilt & feeling I was overreacting or being paranoid & seeing PDIs everywhere....kept picturing myself as Dr. Bennell at the end of Invasion of the Body Snatchers :) But the more I read here the more I'm inclined to think just perhaps I'm not overreacting. It is SUCH a relief to read your words that if they baffle us we are responding normally. If its not out of line, may I ask you when you found out / realized your father was NPD? Was that part of your post exN awareness? You're right, there are times I want to rip the flipping New Glasses off but at the same time, something I'm starting to feel with regards to the sister is that delicious V word & a strange feeling of relief of the guilt that in all my years I’ve never been able to truly “help” her solve her problems. Thank you :) Ava xxo

Ava

#8 Nov 20 - 12AM (Reply to #15)

Briseis

Ava

Ask anything :) I have always known there was something wrong with my father. From a young age I knew he was "crazy", but for the most part, I didn't idealize him or try to please him (it was impossible). It wasn't until after I realized my ex that I'd just kicked out was a Narc that I began to see that a few other important relationships in my life were with similar people. They were painful relationships with ongoing dilemma/drama. So my father was "diagnosed" after I "diagnosed" my exNarc. I'd felt an amount of guilt for cutting off my father ten years ago. I wasn't willing to let him back IN of course. But knowing he was a Narc helped me to put the guilt to rest. I didn't want to let him back in and SHOULD NOT. OK, guilt 99.9% relieved. I don't see "narcs" everywhere, but I see narc BEHAVIOR everywhere. I think this is something that will ease up as more time goes by (three and a half years out). I am exquisitely sensitive to "me me me". My gut goes off, even when it is no big deal, normal kinds of stuff. Narcissistic behavior is on a continuum, but don't worry about that right now. It is OK and actually GOOD for you to allow yourself to "see Narcs everywhere you look" like poor Dr Bennell :D . You won't always. It's more that you are noticing something you never noticed before. And by God, once burned, twice shy! I'm not saying burn them at the stake if they emit "me me me" vibes, just NOTICE them, and think of it as a learning experience. You don't have to be AFRAID of Narcs. Just be aware that they exist, and overly narcissistic behavior exists. You can make yourself safe. And part of that is learning to SEE it. Let yourself see it. I can't speak from ten years down the road, but I suspect this acute sensitivity mellows out. It is still there but not so riveting and distracting as it is now :)

#9 Nov 22 - 2AM (Reply to #16)

Ava

Briseis, you are scary good.

You saw straight through my transient bravado & humour defense & got right down to the heart of it. Fear & not trusting myself / not letting myself see. I was blinding myself to it [again] & you gave me the knock to look at it once more. I have a huge problem with fear. Huge. Not just of narcs but from any outside influence really; primarily because for the first time in my life I'm almost utterly without defenses [except isolation!] & the d&d made me realise that. And the fact that I vastly lack any sense of true boundaries, or realisation that I'm allowed to have them. I had allowed the exN to become my defenses, my support, my esteem - the relationship quickly developed into an "us versus the world" type - I had the needy, overly "loving," "caring" & “I’m the only one who truly understands you” type N. I've never allowed anyone that close or relied on anyone to such an unhealthy extent & I had no idea of how much I'd let that happen until d&d. I've learnt a hell of a lot since but I'm still so afraid - I feel I'm only just starting to get my head above water, just above water, & I'm so afraid of being knocked down again & that I will not be able to get back up. I know I can & I know I will get to a point where I’m not so afraid & I have established boundaries & self trust. But I’m just so far from that point at the moment. I've been aware of all this for a while but I keep forgetting in a sense & its so good to remember all the issues I need to focus on & not to get complacent re. tackling my fears. Thank you for giving me that knock. Could I also ask you another quick question re. your father – i.e. how did/have other family members reacted to him? Thanks again so much, Ava xx

Ava

#10 Nov 22 - 1PM (Reply to #17)

Briseis

Ava

It's not psychic ability hon . . . we are all scared in very similar ways. Individually the reasons may sound different, but they have a deep commonality. You are just one of MANY folks who have these same basic kinds of fears. And you are talking to the queen of bravado :D and IRL, I am just moving toward a braver place. Much more brave than I was, but always trudging forward :) Other family members, to a one, enabled and made excuses for my father. He was the elephant in the living room. We were shut down if we tried to express our feelings, ESPECIALLY by my mother and grandmother. My mother was his primary victim, too.

#11 Nov 22 - 7PM (Reply to #18)

Ava

Thanks again Briseis :)

I've got to stop hijacking Phoebe's post. You're scary good in an impressive insight way - don't get me more afraid about psychic phenomenon.... :P I'm finally learning that I'm not alone & not just excessively weak or afraid & thank you for reassuring me [again] of that. I'm also starting to believe some of the common life coach style advice - i.e. that courage doesn't mean NOT being afraid of things, it means being afraid but going ahead with it anyway. And thank you also for telling me more re. your family situation - I can relate to the elephant in the room analogy & I'm flagging these issues as a new avenue to start examining. Yay for trudging forward to braver places....you're inspiring me again :) Ava xx

Ava

#12 Nov 17 - 9PM

PhoebeR

Some Advice about my friend

So, as you know i am now running into what i think is selfish, if not N behavior from my friend. Well as the Thanksgiving holidays approach I am planning a trip home to see my family. While there i will see my "new" love interest. She will be in town also visiting her family and will be bringing along the guy she is currently seeing. She asked what i will be doing and when i said i would be spending some time with my new love interest. She said, "perfect" we should all go together. It will be fun, she says. My ears perked up and it was like and my radar went off. It made me nervous. She met my new love during one visit, she said maybe 3 words to him and then after he left told me how wrong he was for me. Now she wants us all to hang out? I don't trust this, but I am trying to get over my anger, towards her, which still lurks in me. Should I give her the benefit of the doubt? Should i do this?

#13 Nov 17 - 10PM (Reply to #11)

Briseis

HELL. NO. :) To answer both

HELL. NO. :) To answer both of your questions :) Listen to your gut, it's trying to warn you already.

#14 Nov 3 - 9PM

Lisa E. Scott

Phoebe et al.

Wow, you have no idea how healing everyone's words are right now on this topic. The timing of this discussion thread is unbelievable. I have recently lost a college friend of 20 years because I shared with her how I felt. I stood up for myself for once. It's very upsetting, but Briseis is so right about the glasses. Once you realize what you won't tolerate with a man, it makes you see things in your friends you never noticed before. As CarolKittyGale said: "Unfortunately, some people take friendship for granted especially if you have been around for a long time and always been obliging." We should not tolerate abusive behavior from anyone. I do not want to be with friends who do not make me feel good about myself or treat me like shit. No thanks. I have no need for that in my life anymore. I stood up for myself for once and my friend didn't like it. Why? Because she's not used to it. We didn't speak for 6 months. Eventually, I reached out to her via e-mail to make amends. I stood my ground, did not take back what I said, but said I no longer wanted any negative energy between us. She responded and basically told me to eff off. No joke. After 20 years of friendship, I stand up for myself for once. We don't talk for six months. I come around with an e-mail extending an olive branch and she responds by tearing me to shreads. Nice, huh? It hurts. So many people lie to themselves about their reality. As if that's not bad enough, they then expect and force their friends to go along with the lie or else. This is partly what inspired me to write Step 5, which is to "Get Real." Too many people deny their reality, lie to themselves and expect others to live their lie with them. That's what happened in this argument. I met my friend's boss one night while she and I were out drinking. He asked me to dinner and with NO provocation from me proceeded to tell me that a woman at work was talking badly about my friend and telling co-workers that my friend "slept her way to the top." Why he told me this, I will never know! He said he needed HR advice. In any case, I had to tell her this. I knew she would want me to tell her so she could address it immediately. However, when I tell her this, she freaks out and tells me I should NEVER have been in a position to hear this type of info. and I NEVER should have been on a date with her boss. She tells me I need to get a hold of myself and my moral compass is off. She insults me to no end! Excuse me? I'm not the one who slept around at work. Yet, somehow MY moral compass is off because I went to dinner with her new boss? WTF?! Of course, I said none of this to her, but I did stand my ground and tell her I didn't like her telling me that I was "out of control" and "needed to get a hold of myself." I asked her if she would have preferred me not tell her this and she said, "No, of course you should tell me this. I need to know this so I can do something about it, but you should NEVER have been in a position to hear this!" Of course, prior to this, she expressed absolutely NO concern over the fact that he asked me to dinner. Talk about denial. Instead of acknowledging that she slept with her boss five years ago, she chose to end a friendship of over 20 years. It's very sad how many people live in denial. Instead of being honest and acknowledging their behavior, they shift blame, project and abuse others. Sorry for the long diatribe. Phew! Apparently, I needed to "Get it Out" ! Phoebe - I'm so glad your divorce is final and you are away from the narc. I'm so sorry you are dealing with this with your friend right now, but the silver lining is that you are standing up for yourself now!!!! Keep it up and don't back down! Stay strong. We should NEVER allow anyone to treat us like our feelings are irrelevant just so they can make themselves feel better! That's emotional abuse and the sign of a raging narcissist. xoxo

#15 Nov 5 - 8PM (Reply to #9)

PhoebeR

They are everwhere

Lisa, Thanks for your post, you know maybe there are more female N's then previously thought. Maybe they are more subtle and disguise it as flirting or simple female rivalry. It just seems that more and more pop up. We all know that women are our own worst critics, and women are soooo mean to other women. We fight with each other, not with fists but with words. Cattiness they call it. Which is why its easier to hide. i am sorry you are losing your friend. I am not there yet, but i know it may be a matter of time before another thing happens, that forces me to pull away even more. My niceness at times has worked against me, but i am learning my limits and getting stronger each day.

#16 Nov 3 - 7PM

PhoebeR

You are all so right

Thanks for all the comments and support. I also love the new glasses analogy, it does feel like suddenly i can see, after being blurred and in the dark. I notice peoples behaviors so much clearer now, in a way its liberating, and in other ways its kind of scary to know these people have been in my life and i failed to see it. I did confront her after the incident regarding her house sitting and inviting a stranger to my house. I not only spoke to that incident but her moving out so quickly without even giving me notice. She said she did not know what her limits were since she had stuff there well was not sure, and when i asked about her moving out and explained it was not the act but the way she went about it, she cried, seemed annoyed i was angry. i was proud of myself, i did not shed one tear. I brought it up again and she said " i already apologized, what more do you want" so i let it go. Since then the friendship has been a bit strained, and i can't seem to get over it, i still get angry and i am more cautious and notice her actions a lot more. It sucks to feel this way about a person i have known for over 20 years, but what sucks more is to think of all the times i let things go, not said a word. Let her win. I see in others now how they are not like that, other friends in my life. It's odd and disturbing at times.

#17 Nov 3 - 8AM

fedup

Hi Phoebe

Oh boy, I feel your pain. I'm just coming to terms with the fact that the woman who I considered to be my best friend for the last nearly 15 years must have some form of PD--and my heart is devastated. It's hard enough when a romantic connection turns out to be false--but coming from a girlfriend, somehow it feels like a deeper betrayal.I believe we all expect our close girlfriends to be our rocks--always there no matter what, thick and thin. It's supposed to be the relationship that you can always count on even as men come and go--it's supposed to be the one constant.This is the person who knows all of your deepest secrets, your vulnerabilities, etc.......... Same as a lot of the other women here-as I started to study PD's--and learning to set healthy boundaries--I realized that I wasn't being treated that well in this friendship.I gave her the benefit of the doubt for soooooo long, made excuses for bad behavior on her part--Looking back at it now, I realize that I would've never tolerated a man treating me like that, cancelling plans at the last minute--(often), not returning calls in a reasonable time frame (I think 2 weeks is fair for best friends),treating me like I was the default choice....(never committing to plans til the last minute)lashing out at me when I expressed that my feelings were hurt---blameshifting, projection, etc. I would never tolerate that from a man, knowing what I know now.( a few years ago I might have.) So why was I taking that from a supposed best friend? I tried to have a heart to heart with her, without attacking her--I expressed confusion, and hurt. I asked her about her behavior, I didn't jump to conclusions or label her instantly. Her only response was, "you're just trying to make me feel bad........".."you're just trying to make me feel stupid." So she stepped on my feelings, I said, "Ouch!... Why?... What's up?......Are you okay??" And that meant I was the bad guy, in her eyes.Wow.I guess she expected me to put up and shut up,and be grateful for the breadcrumbs she tossed my way. Phoebe, in your case, I can't jump to the conclusion that your friend is an N--just like I still don't want to label mine so drastically, yet........ But I agree with the others here, your friend is exhibiting very self-centered behaviors, and being careless with your feelings.(as well as taking advantage of your friendship)Since you're still recovering and healing, it might not be healthy to have someone in your life who's going to create drama--and who's going to take more than they give.(consistently) Have you tried voicing your feelings to her?

#18 Nov 3 - 3AM

CarolKittyGale (not verified)

PhoebeR

This has happened to me too...loved Briseis comment about the new glasses...it is so true. I have dropped out of a 20 year 'supposedly' close friendship only last week although it had been on my mind for much longer to confront my issues with her. I don't know why I didn't see it before because I have had two Narc relationships but the first one although very short was very violent and I was traumatised but when I look back my so called best friend was a proper bitch to me during that terrible time. The second Narc relationship has opened by eyes to so much....new glasses. Unfortunately, some people take friendship for granted especially if you have been around for a long time and always been obliging. In some ways even though the narc relationships were really horrible they have been a blessing in disguise for me because I have took stock and sorted myself out and feel better than I have for a long time.

#19 Nov 2 - 9PM

Briseis

Hi Phoebe

Welcome to the new pair of glasses you get after a relationship with a Narc. I couldn't say if your friend is a Narc, but I agree with you that her BEHAVIOR is self centered and lack regard for you. Up until I ended the r/s with exN, I had many relationships with selfish types, and now I literally canNOT tolerate them :( . It was like I didn't "notice" this behavior before, I tolerated it and it felt normal. My father is a Narc, and I'm sure I was conditioned from birth to put myself second fiddle, always at another person's service, very afraid of confrontation. I blew a gasket after I got rid of my exN. I started seeing "N's" everywhere. It was pretty awful at first, I thought I had gone overboard. What happened was that I was starting to see stuff I'd never seen before (thus my joke about the "new glasses"). Life is too short to be pushed around by pushy people, N's or no. I am an RN and I get paid to be "at your service", or, I choose to be of service (like here as a mod). I greatly enjoy it and get tons of good stuff back. HOWEVER. I am careful who I "let in" close. I have lots of very fond acquaintances and a few very close friends, always hoping for more :) . But I "see" that hint of selfishness that is just a little bit too much and I keep a polite distance. I just don't have the energy, and it's not "good" for the selfish person to walk all over other people anyway. It feels normal now to see with these "new glasses". You'll get used to them. Not everyone is a Narc, not even close :) The good side of this is you'll be able to avoid close contact with Narcs. This is worth the weight of the planet in gold. Another good side is I can ALSO "see" genuine, normal honest people, I can tell who they are more clearly now.

#20 Oct 31 - 4PM

tica

Phoebe

Welcome back, although i am fairly new (4 months) always good to hear different opinions..as for your friend, all of us on this board have "Narc radar" if yours is blinking, then trust that feeling...that's another thng we have all learned...as blue eyes said, I'd stay away from her as well...it's sad to lose what you thought was a friendship, but remember there is no reasoning crazy..try to get her stuff out as well..you don't need the stress, Narcs feel entitled to overstep..don't allow it, she'll respect yu more for it too...peace and light~

#21 Oct 31 - 4PM

blueeyes

Yes

I find that I attract the N's as well. A few in my life at the moment. I keep them away.

#22 Nov 2 - 9PM (Reply to #2)

PhoebeR

The more i see

You both make valid points. As i read on here, I am now more aware and can see things clearly since my experience with my Ex N. I will be careful its tough when someone takes advantage of my good nature. It pisses me off actually. I know most N's are men, but now i need to look at everyone i meet, men and women. Ugh!

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