narcs and autism

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#1 May 7 - 3PM
Scoop
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narcs and autism

I was having lunch today with a friend and i was trying to explane what a psycopath was and after i finished he said "so its a bit like autism , autistic people dont feel emotion and cant connect to people on that leavel " and it got me wondering is there was any link to the two disorders .Maybe psycopaths are high funcioning autistic people ?
Wouldnt it be easyer to get youre head round narcs if we could liken it to a disorder like autism and wouldnt we lower our expectations of them .. the fact is nether of them are caperble of an adult loving relationship but i know in my head comming to terms with this fact has been the hardest point in recovory .. Now if someone said he was autistic i would have walkied away at the begining .
I saw a short video on you tube about google trends on the word "psycopaths " and it seemed to be little intrest in the subject till 2009 and then the serch trend shot up in the last couple of years .I wonder what made the interest shoot up like that ? .. I would like to think it had something to do with us being hear :).. Scoop xx

May 8 - 3PM
serendipity
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Still trying to cope...

I'm new to all this and reading everyone's comments have helped me with my road to recovery. Right now, I would like to share my experience with a narc and I pray that this is the last of my encounters! I apologize in advance for this may be very lengthy! Just trying to get it out of my system once and for all! I've known this guy since I was a pre-teen and he was my first crush, my first love. I lost contact with him as we grew up, but reconnected a while ago with the help of FB. At the time, I believed that there was some Divine intervention that brought us back together. Dated him for 2 years without recognizing the signs of a narc. It was only after he D&D me that I began my research just to bring some sort of closure and to make sense of what happened. In the beginning, he was Prince Charming. Told me that I made him "feel alive! and sexy!", that he put me up on the pedestal, that he has so much respect for me, that I'm a good woman, asking where have I been all his life, wishes that he married me instead...blah blah blah. As we continued on, he would always want to know where I am and who I was with. If I was with a gf, he would text me asking me if my gf is sexy and what she's wearing. I thought it was just him trying to be funny, so I didn't think of it much. Sometimes when went out for dinner, he would make comments saying that he thinks a waitress wants him cuz she keeps looking over at him. He would also look at some of my friends pics and say things like "you have nothing to worry about cuz I don't find them that attractive and I wouldn't consider dating them". Sometimes, he would also be very judgmental of my friends calling one of them unattractive and fat! To which I had a mouthful that I dished out to him!! He even hated one of my gf's all becuz she told me to be careful since I tell him everything and how would I know if he was giving me the same respect back. I spoke to him about this and wow! did I ever get a response!! He didn't like that at all! He was soooo angry calling her every name in the curse book and said that he never ever wants to be in the same room with her and if I continue my friendship with her, that's fine, but to make sure we don't talk about him at all! And even that didn't make the alarms go off in my head!! Duh!! However, while I was with him, I always questioned why he had NO friends! No one even invited him out to watch the Super Bowl! WOW!! But becuz I felt sorry for him, I invited him to my gf's place since she was having a party and the minute we arrived there, he conversed with everyone as if he knew them forever! Whenever my out-of-town friends came for a visit, I'd always put out an invite for him to join. But when one of his friends who he went to college with came for a visit, I received no invitation whatsoever!! When I asked him, he shrugged his shoulders and said "just didn't think of it". And I know that when he went out to see her that night, he went for a haircut earlier that day and he wore the clothes that I picked out for him when we went shopping cuz he remembered that I told him that he looked really good in them. He never had any problems inviting me to his family functions and including me in his daughter's life. I'm a single mom of 2 and yet, he made no attempt in wanting to interact with my family and kids. He would however, introduce me to his coworkers by my first name only or introduce me to his dad's friend as "this is my friend...", but the moment we left them, he immediately took my hand! WTH??!! I was never in his eyes seen as his "girlfriend". He never even told me in the 2 years we dated that he loved me! :( My woman's intuition was kicking strong, but I never listened to it! BIG MISTAKE!! Just kept making excuses after excuses!!! But things started going downhill when I started questions about his relationship with his so-called acquaintance. He explained that she went to high school with him and they haven't seen each other since. But they keep in contact via FB. I have lots of guy friends and I don't care if he has girl friends as well. But what got me curious is how he would label her as just an acquaintance, but make comments on her photos saying how beautiful she is....but on my photos, I get absolutely nothing! He's also sent messages to her signing off with "hugs and kisses" or "xoxo" or even inviting her to come up to visit with him cuz he thinks she looks great and that some areas here now have "chalets...hint hint". I confronted him with this and he was enraged to think that I believed that he's capable of having one hand on me while he scopes around and if things go bad, he could run back to me. He also said that she lives hundred of miles away, so how could he possibly do anything with her. He even went to the extent of saying that I'm the 2nd person who's accused him of having an affair with this same woman (the first being his ex-wife). He made me feel like I was the one who was crazy, that I have massive trust issues and that he's not in love with her, but in my mind I have already put him on a one way ticket to this acquaintance of his. The boiling point to our "relationship" was when I noticed that he created a skype account and had all his family, myself and HER on his contact list. I once again confronted him about this and asked if she was just an acquaintance, why must he ensure that she can contact him by all means possible? FB, email, cell and now Skype? If she's just an acquaintance of his. And becuz I confronted him about this via text, he gave me the "silent treatment" for days!! I sent him a text saying that it's important that we discuss this but he never responded. The mistake I made was a few days later, I sent him a message on FB saying how extremely disappointed I was in his behavior and if a man was to ever treat his daughter this way, what would he think of this man. I went on saying for 2 years I've supported him, helped him get his house that he shared with his ex-wife ready for sale, loved his daughter as my own, and accepted him for him. Also said that I was just a "friend" to him and nothing more even though we were very intimate. That I deserve respect and wished he extended me the courtesy to explain my take on the situation as opposed to running away like a coward. Mentioned that he really lacked empathy. I even quoted him....saying "you always told me that if ever things don't work out between us, I never want you to ever hate me". I signed off saying "Well, congratulations, you've made it impossible for me not to!". I thought I'd never hear back from him, but he responded only to say "AND I'm a bad father? The only person I ever skyped with was my cousin! No one else!" Stupidly, I replied saying that I don't believe his is a bad father. Point to the message was to relay how he made me feel. Then said "Once again, you've made the situation all about you." Never heard from him since. It's now been 6 weeks of NC and it still hurts. He's deleted me from his FB as soon as he responded to my message. Just shaking my head wondering how can I be so blind?! Though I 'm still trying to cope, I still believe in.... serendipity
May 8 - 10AM
Scoop
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Eeeek I totaly didnt make it

Eeeek I totaly didnt make it clear , this is what happens if you post after the pub on a Sat night . I wasnt sujesting that autistic people are as wickid and and bad as psycopaths , my point was if we could see it as a disorder of the neuological type we could turn a corner .. its all very well saying that the narc is a narc what dose that mean .. see if they where born normal and something went wrong so they ended up a narc for me it sugest that what ever went wrong could be fixed and we hold onto toxic hope . but . if it is a born with brain disorder i think it would help to understand there is no hope .. ok forget autism and lets say down syndrome we all know someone with down syndrome has limitations so our expetations are ajusted accordeingly ... actualy .. ill just shut up how im not makeing sence and im diging myself a hole and i dont want to unpset anyone .. Scoop out .. :)
May 8 - 4PM (Reply to #24)
ValiditySeeker
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I got what you were saying,

I got what you were saying, scoop. I think my answer was the one that was a little off topic. I was just pontificating about the ways the two might have similar brains and how they might differ. If you read The Sociopath Next Door, it says the prefrontal cortex is underdeveloped in the sociopath. That makes me think it's not their fault. However, there are people with similarly underdeveoped pre frontal cortexes who are not sociopaths. Which puts us back at Square One: is it a neurological problem or a choice? Either way, I hate them and think they need to wear identification bracelets at all times.
May 8 - 1PM (Reply to #21)
ifinallygotit
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not offended by the discussion - its a good one to have!

But it is not a neurological problem for the N - that is the primary difference. The N can interact normally if he chooses to - its a psychological disorder - very different from autism. When there is a disability, it is permanent and consistent... An N could technically be healed if was not such a jerk, if defenses were not so entrenched was he was willing to do the scary work. But they are not. This is why they drive us nuts because we all saw a glimpse (well I did) of the real person.
May 8 - 2PM (Reply to #22)
Scoop
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i have to say that the

i have to say that the sicence behind what makes a psycopath is pretty much the same as they have done cat scans on their brains and there is a disconection to the frount part of the brain where we store emotion .. the question is where they born that way or did this disconection happen as a result of childhood trauma . Some experts say it is a combination of the two but i am leaning on the born that way side .We must understand that npd and all the cluster bs brains are set up in a diffrent way to a normal person so in essence they do not choose to not have emotion they just done . When we say they have a choise to act in a certain way this is ture in part , they are clever enough to know how to act in a socialble and accepted mannor as they know the theory behind an proper emotional resoponce but they do not feel the emotion they are acting out .The narc feels two "emotions" which are fear and anger which are primal emotions which we are born with , the higher emotions like love empathy and conscience which we learn through childhood passed them by .. Big love Scoop x
May 8 - 2PM (Reply to #23)
ifinallygotit
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Interesting comment

Maybe they are just less evolved creatures! horrible thought to think they are just less human but maybe they have the tendency and then environmental factors seal their fate. They know right from wrong though.
May 7 - 8PM
ifinallygotit
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there is a big difference

Autism is an organic physical condition due to a neurological problem in the brain. The person cannot control these effects and does not willfully chose to have awkward social interactions or to be out of touch with other's emotions or unable to respond. The Narc does not have an actual physical limitation. It is a psychological limitation that he or she can turn on and off, perhaps unconsciously. The Narc can have perfectly normal interactions with people if it suits his desire to promote a positive image. He only acts weird and shuts down to those he decides are a threat to him emotionally or a threat to his image. The emotional difficulties occur due to either lack of developed skills (maybe some genetics involved) or some early unresolved trauma being played out. A Narc can be the life of the party and give a fabulous interview, tuned in to everyone's emotions perfectly. He can read the crowd, he can read what a woman wants. A person with autism cannot switch their disorder off and on at will.. Ns deceitfully plan to seduce and discard people with their skills.
May 8 - 4AM (Reply to #19)
not-there-yet
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"A person with autism cannot

"A person with autism cannot switch their disorder off and on at will.." This is important for the parents here :) Remember it, just because your child can handle going to the circus doesn't mean he's faking his pain in dealing with the noise of a playground.
May 7 - 5PM
not-there-yet
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I'm autistic, can i reply?

I disagree with this :D I'm an Aspie. We do have feelings, probably stronger than most people since we can end up paralysed by those feelings. It's very different, it's true that in the case of empathy an autistic person can stay there and stare at you when you injure yourself in front of them, but it's for different reasons. First, sensory issues: the autistic person would HATE to be cuddled while hurt, he/she has to focus on the pain until it's gone. So they assume it's the same for everybody, until they're told they're being insensitive and try to learn the proper way to react. But they can still stay frozen even if they have been told this, because they fear doing what is socially inacceptable, and often get mixed signals from people. "can i hug her? does she NEED a hug or does she need me to stay away? Does she like me enough to accept a hug from me even though she's in pain? " an endless stream of questions rush through your brain and often, the moment to react has come and gone and you're "insensitive" again. I personally wouldn't walk away from autistic people :D They are generally very sensitive, the perfect prey for a narc...
May 8 - 6AM (Reply to #16)
Bitter-sweet
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honesty

Hi not-there-yet. I found your reply realy interesting as my son (who is in his early 20s) has Aspergers. You explain the inner conflict so clearly. My son is extremely sensitive and still finds some social situations very stressful. He is nothing like the N I was involved with and there is another very big difference. My son is always honest. He lacks any degree of guile and his innocence and vulenrability are sometimes concerning. My N was deceitful and calculating- to me this is a very significant difference.
May 8 - 7PM (Reply to #17)
Lisa87
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aspergers/autism

my son has Aspergers too and he is 15,nothing like my ex Narc but i understand a bit of what you were trying to point out scoop. Narcs are calculating and manipulative where as my son is the sweetest boy ever, tells me 20 times a day that he loves me and most certainly has empathy. Asperger's is on the autistic spectrum but more of a social issue, every autistic and asperger's child/adult has different traits.
May 7 - 6PM (Reply to #14)
Susan32
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Autistics are vulnerable

Autistics are more likely to be prey than predators. For the most part, they have consciences, WANT desperately to fit in, and do the right thing. Neurologist Oliver Sacks once referred to a psychopath as "autistic" and that when the psychopath was playing the piano, that "autism ceases." He used the terms interchangeably. A year after the final D&D with the ex-Psych (as in psychopath) professor, I tutored an autistic student. There were significant similarities. There were also HUGE differences. I was assigned to the autistic student the MOST because somehow I knew how to relate to him. Somehow I was able to "connect" with this student because of my previous experience. The fact he didn't give me eye contact or that he'd endlessly talk about dinosaurs didn't faze me. I helped him make academic progress, stay on task. It was a challenge, but a rewarding one.
May 7 - 6PM (Reply to #15)
Veronrose
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Susan wrote: "The fact he

Susan wrote: "The fact he didn't give me eye contact or that he'd endlessly talk about dinosaurs didn't faze me. I helped him make academic progress, stay on task. It was a challenge, but a rewarding one". Susan, that's awesome. :)))
May 7 - 5PM (Reply to #12)
Veronrose
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not-there-yet wrote: First,

not-there-yet wrote: First, sensory issues: the autistic person would HATE to be cuddled while hurt, he/she has to focus on the pain until it's gone. OMG, not-there-yet, thank you for explaining this!!! I have often wondered why my son will get hurt, scream in pain but won't let me near him. He won't even let me LOOK at his *boo-boo* until the pain has subsided. Wow, now I understand!! Thank you!!! xoxoV
May 8 - 4AM (Reply to #13)
not-there-yet
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:D

You're welcome, well if you have any question about your son, don't hesitate, i know it's complicated, my son is autistic too but even being autistic myself, sometimes I don't understand everything....But I'll do my best , I'm a pro at self analysis :P
May 7 - 5PM (Reply to #10)
Steph
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not-there-yet

I want to apologize, I really hope I did not offend you with what I said about those with Asperger's syndrome not having empathy. I have read that several times in literature but I certainly don't have experience with it. Thank you for stepping in and explaining it and setting it straight here:) I sincerely apologize:) xoxo
May 8 - 4AM (Reply to #11)
not-there-yet
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No offense, I know it widely

No offense, I know it is widely misunderstood and a lot of the clichés going around are a bit hurtful, but if someone offends me, it will be the "professional" publishing books full of myths and misconceptions, not the person believing the professional. Don't worry about it :)
May 7 - 4PM
Steph
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I don't think it's the

I don't think it's the same. There is different types of autism, from what I understand. "Asberger's syndrome" is one where the sufferer lacks empathy....and this one gets confused with narcissism, from what I have read. But otherwise, I think most autistic people DO have feelings. I think labelling a Narc with "autism" is giving them far too much credit.
May 7 - 3PM
findingmeagain
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I don't know about this scoop

My daughter is autistic and she most definitely feels emotion. She shows it alot too she just doesn't know how to express herself with communication. narcs imo use to know how to feel emotion at one point of time in their life but something happened with my narc he developed a brain tumor and had to learn how to do everything all over again after his surgery. I strongly think that hs something to do with why he is the way he is. He told me while he was in the hospital noone came to see him but his mother . NOONE ELSE .no other family members and he has five other siblings , no friends, no gfs (he was 15 at the time) , noone but his mother. That is when he turned his feelings off I think and it probably was easier for him to do so because of that surgery on his brain. so lets see 15 and his is 38 now about to be 39. 24 years of being and studying narcissim wow . Last time when we were back together I told him this he said I'm right on the money. He said that is when he became "indifferent" with people. He also said that why would someone not want to control people smh. I told him I never want to I want ppl to do things because thats what they want to do not because I tricked them to do it. He needs major help man.
May 7 - 3PM
ValiditySeeker
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I work with special needs kids

And autistic kids do have emotions. They struggle to express them and cant take anorher person's perspective. Psychopaths font take your perspective but they act like they do. Autistics don't know how to act normal. Psychopaths act normal when it's required. Autistics aren't super-aware of other people but psychopaths study us under a microscope. Autistics hurt your feelings on accident. Psychopaths hurt you adeptly and intentionally. I bet they have similar brains but also have very big differences.
May 7 - 3PM (Reply to #2)
findingmeagain
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Exactly because my daughter

Exactly because my daughter has alot of emotions she just doesn't know how to express them like you and i do. But she definitely has emotions. Oh no narcs brains are way smaller than a autistic person they've got dinosaur brains. My daughter has a memory that remembers from 2 years of age and she is 9 . narcs can't remember that they've told you they love you in hours smh
May 7 - 5PM (Reply to #3)
Veronrose
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Yep, findingme, I definitely

Yep, findingme, I definitely agree. My 10yo son is on the spectrum (PDD-NOS) and he definitely feels emotions too. If his feeling are hurt, he will cry. If his brother teases him (normal sibling stuff) he will get upset. If he's nervous or worried he goes "inside" himself. He wants so badly to be accepted but knows that for some reason, he's different. For that reason he doesn't mind being by himself. He has few friends, but those friends are good friends who "get him". He wouldn't dream of deliberately hurting them, or anyone for that matter. He has some social deficits, doesn't always know what is appropriate and what is not, but he definitely has emotions. I read that there have been some studies linking autism with alzheimers, but I've seen nothing where autism has been linked to psychopathy. ((hugs)) to you findingme, cause I know first hand of the struggles of raising a child with autism. When will your daughter be ten? My son turned 10 this past January. xoxo V
May 8 - 4PM (Reply to #4)
JRB123
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Hurting

I think when you said your son wouldn't dream of deliberately hurting anyone - that is the major difference. Someone on the autism spectrum might not know how to behave appropriately in social situations and my unwillingly come accross as different but they would never do harm intentionally. A narc or psychopath knows how to 'act' appropriately but underneath that 'act' they are scheming and playing games and intentionally hurt people. I do see narcs as another species and think it is mostly a biological thing and is incurable. It is also harder to diagnose and quite often some psychopathic personality traits are admired by current social values. I hope we all learn from our N experiences to never go there again.
May 8 - 5PM (Reply to #5)
ValiditySeeker
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Another thought

If I can teach an autistic child new skills, why couldn't a sociopathic narc be taught to empathize with another human being? I know they've tried to get criminals in prison diagnosed with ASD to reform but they can't do it. I'm just wondering why the hell not? We CAN teach a dyslexic how to read, it just takes a long time. if a person has a brain injury, they can relearn some of their skills through intense training. So, back to the original question: is it a simple neuro difference? Or are they making a choice to be evil? I'm not particularly religious, but I do think Peck's book The People of the Lie offers up the theory that there is evil right here on earth. We just need to stay away from them.
May 9 - 12AM (Reply to #6)
Veronrose
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Validity seeker, I can

Validity seeker, I can totally understand your question. The way I see it is this: Autistics are BORN this way (or for the sake of argument, for a pre-disposition to chemicals introduced via MMR vaccinations at 18mos old) with genetic wiring in their brains that are *off*. Psychopaths brains RE-WIRE because of emotional trauma, whether through childhood trauma brought on by emotional or physical abuse, or by the abstinance of a loving, nurturing environment. Psychopaths have a learned, COPING behavior. So, in affect, psychopaths feel no empathy, because they have never been empathized WITH. If it is deemed that autistics have no empathy, it's because of different reasons....mostly for sensory reasons....they only know how to make things right for themselves, in what would seem an "unusual" way, but they think this is how to deal with others...to leave them alone, because they, themselves, want to be left alone. Autistics DO NOT want to hurt others. They want to be accepted, they want to learn, they want to be like everybody else. They WANT to blend in to society. Psychopaths could care less. However, Psychopaths DO blend in with society because their dysfunction is emotional. They can be the beautiful guy/woman next door who draws you in with everything that looks normal and beautiful, but it's not. Psychopaths LIE....Autistics, sometimes to their own detriment, never lie. Bottom line is, NOBODY, not you, me, autistic or psychopath will change unless we WANT to....psychopaths will never change, because they see nothing wrong with themselves. High functioning autistics KNOW that there is something not right....they just don't know why they are different, but today, with early intervention they can blend in with society and be just fine. However, no matter where a person falls on the autistic spectrum, they do not set out to hurt another. Psychopathy evolves later....and they WANT to hurt. They want the jugular and you cannot teach this person because they have no idea there is anything wrong with them.