A profound realization about idealization-I'm unstuck!

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#1 Sep 3 - 11AM
Sunafterrain
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A profound realization about idealization-I'm unstuck!

I wanted to share this with all of you, a revelation that I've had the last few days and it is very freeing. I've been listening to Thomas Sheridan's interviews over and over when I have felt depressed over my ex. It's driving my kids crazy LOL! I also blog on another site, and had a big epiphany there that has me moving forward when I was so incredibly stuck. I see it a lot here too and I think it's the biggest impediment to the healing process.

I was stuck because my ex psychopath did not fit the bill of the sexual predator. While he showed some deviancy sexually, ie: I was an object, the OW, exploited me sexually, abused me sexually, etc, he wasn't heavily into porn, he wasn't screwing fifty million women, the sexuality amounted to what was mere novelty. Doing it outside in weird places on his property, in a hot tub, and he wanted me to use a vibrator really bad, but I refused, not because I was necessarily opposed to it, but because I knew i was being OBJECTIFIED and I always felt that he really wasn't "into" sex the way some of your personality disordered men were. I was the ow for ten years of his second 17 year marriage. Looking back, I believe that soon after his marriage he began to withhold, got bored and the idealization phase with her was over. Sex, as he said, was a "maintenance chore" at home. I believe he had the Madonna/Whore complex. Once he marries, sex is good for about a year. then it stops. then it's time to look for a triangulation. He loves that. He enjoyed the triangulation. It gave him more POWER. He bores VERY easily. this new marriage too, is a novelty. He will get to do everything he wants to do and then will get bored. Sex will become maintenance again and then he'll be on the prowl. He told me once that if he could just find the right woman, he could be faithful. He played "hard to get" at first with me. Like he was faithful. talked about his wife all the time, yet was at my house everyday for lunch. It was all a cover. He talked about her, because he had no personality to discuss with regards to himself. I saw a dependence that was overwhelming, as well as sickening. I've since learned that putting your spouse on display on a pedestal, is just as damaging as not putting her there. It is an insult. What it really turned out to be, upon reflection is that he enjoys controlling, isolating, one woman at a time. He works hard to break her down and keep her away from everyone she knows. He lives in the sticks and this helps him do that.

There are two points here I'd like to make and I see this over and over with everyone's stories. It seems that this is partially what keeps us stuck in the muck, as it were. Pathologicals are PURPOSELY targeting you in the idealization phase, which I think is the MOST dangerous of all phases. He puts on a mask specifically for you and lies and manipulates and deceives, love bombs, etc. He takes on a completely different persona for each target. OMG! We've met our soul mate! He elevates us to unbelievable and ridiculous heights. He takes the good qualities of ours and EXPLOITS those qualities to get what he wants. NONE OF IT IS REAL!!!!! The hardest part in getting over these relationships, is what was created in the idealization phase. This is often why we stay and do anything we can to make it work. We are still living off the high of ourselves, the mirroring he exposed us too and exploited. It's just a ridiculously overrated version of ourselves. Who doesn't want to be told that they're gorgeous, you're the only one, the best in bed...how ridiculous is that? Our flaws do not exist during the idealization phase. this is, in actuality, the heart of the sickness. We really believe he feels/felt that way. He never did. There was not ONE real moment in the relationship. When it is over, the idealization phase is the utmost in betrayal. We bought the story, the web he weaved about ourselves. when the relationship is over, we are forced to find the balance in what is real. We DO have flaws, we do make incorrect choices, we can love, we feel badly when we've hurt someone. we ARE good people inside, with conscience. we are NOT the elevated version of what the psychopath introduced us to during the idealization phase. I have seen, over and over, women and men wanting so badly to believe that even a small part of the good times was real. It wasn't. It was either a lie or manipulation. And when you look at it in this way, the devaluation and discard is just as EXTREME as the idealization. NOne of that is true of ourselves either, the extreme badness he wants us to believe of ourselves. NONE OF IT WAS REAL. To embrace and accept what has happened, is to embrace and accept that HIS sickness and our own narcissism to a degree, allowed us to believe his lies in the idealization phase. healthy relationship do not start out that way. We see one another for what is real, flaws and good stuff. The biggest part of grieving is understanding that anything he said or did during the luring phase, was a LIE. There was no truth in him. NONE. It's so sad to read some stories, my own included in the past and apply a human quality to a man who was so sick he was incapable of any warmth that was real. Thomas Sheridan is right. So is sandra brown. They are human predators. they target on purpose with the intent to deceive and manipulate. Their intent is to destroy you. to hurt you. If you can wrap your mind around his disorder, the traits he had and the red flags you missed early on. If you can accept that anything that felt real from him in the idealization phase was as fake as the day is long..it's easier to come to terms and accept what happened. That is his biggest hook into you. This is why NC is so critical to recovery, on every single level and to clear the cog/dis with the absolute truth of him. The untruths of you, the finding of balance again within yourself. The more I see that the ENTIRE relationship was fake, ESPECIALLY the idealization phase, I have new eyes. I see where the red flags were that I missed. I got caught up in the fantasy he created for me. I believe his lies. I also began to understand that every disordered individual doesn't show one trait to the extreme, again such as sexual, as some others do, but this doesn't change the bottom line traits that are significant for every single one of them, no matter how they are manifested in the relationship, ie: lack of empathy, lack of remorse, lack of guilt, pathological lying, manipulation. All of us have seen those traits in our disordered partners.

I feel much freer with this understanding. Because he doesn't do one thing that another psychopath would, it doesn't make him any less a psychopath. Just because I want to believe the idealization was real, well, doesn't make it real, because it wasn't at all. He is still as pathological as the day is long. And he will never change. He didn't change with his past marriages, with me, and certainly not with this one either. I listen to the Thomas Sheridan videos often throughout the day, particularly the radio interviews. Hearing them over and over, and telling the story, brings a new revelation every time. But this one was the biggest. And I do believe that the idealization phase is the most dangerous of all. I hope there will be more public education with regards to how the psychopath lures and what signs to look for early on. Many lives could be spared and saved from their extreme desire to destroy, harm and damage.

Sep 5 - 10PM
rosedewittbukater
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Sunafterrain - unstuck

This is where I am stuck. Thank you for posting this. I am trying to come to terms with this. Is there a particular Thomas Sheridan interview that addresses this? I would love to give it a listen. hugs, Rose
Sep 5 - 10PM (Reply to #36)
Sunafterrain
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Rose

Not in particulars necessarily, but it outlines what the psychopath is and does. It is very compelling and he lists the traits as well. It's so different, for me, in actually HEARING someone outline it, rather than just reading, although that is helpful too. Thomas is not an "expert" in that he has academia behind him, he is free to express his insights without limitation. If you listen over and over, you become much stronger. I'm still waiting for his book, "puzzling people" to arrive. I hear it's also an excellent read. Also, if you get on youtube and type in Thomas Sheridan-psychopaths, it gives you a list of his videos he has done dealing with psychopathy. They all have titles. All will resonate with you!
Sep 5 - 10PM (Reply to #37)
rosedewittbukater
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Sheridan

Going to check it out. Thanks!!
Sep 4 - 10AM
sumiko
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I would like to point out

I would like to point out something that bothered me throughout the 10 months that I spent with him and that this post made me reflect upon on when I read "Our flaws do not exist during the idealization phase.". It may sound odd, but I had a feeling that it "wasn't right" that I never did anything wrong. Nothing I ever did or said could get him upset, not even to the slightest. I couldn't believe there was NOTHING on this earth about me that could make him feel uncomfortable. When I started to realize about this situation, I started to feel like a whinny little bitch, because there were many things he'd do (even for as small as they were) that made me feel upset, but I had none, so I thought it was "unfair" and I instantly tagged myself as being "over sensitive" about things. I would point out the "big" things that would make me feel upset, but I would never point out the "small" things. At the end, I was repressed and I knew it, but I didn't know what I was dealing with until I pointed out a "big" thing and well, here I am.
Sep 3 - 1PM
Sunafterrain
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onwithmylife

I think I do, however, I think it's 100%, not 98. When we give this person ANY "credit" for anything being real, we are hanging on. I know from experience, that it doesn't matter to a psychopath what you look like. It matters to them ONLY what they want from you. THAT IS ALL. I'm a relatively good looking woman, thin and in good shape. The next target was extremely overweight. He told me when confronted "Babe, you know I can't do fat chicks". Sure he could, because his NEEDS had changed and if she had let him, which she didn't, blew him off instead, he would have readily been willing to tap into her bank account as she was somewhat wealthy. Sex is also overrated with a psychopath. It gets old after awhile. We tend to focus a lot on good in bed. SO? A lot of us are "Good in bed" ANYONE can be good in bed, but it makes no difference to him, it's just a hole with benefits. That's it. NOTHING MORE. It was a means to an end. If what he was after was what he got, then anything more to that is an added benefit. Many psychopaths marry women not just for money but to use as a cover of normalcy. They are anything but normal. Sex does not define the relationship. But the psychopath uses that and our over abundance of oxytocin to stay in the relationship. It's used as a weapon, to keep our mouths shut and to adore him. Nothing more, nothing less
Sep 3 - 2PM (Reply to #33)
Used
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SUNAFTERRAIN

HI YA...I PMED YOU...XX
Sep 3 - 2PM (Reply to #32)
Caligirl
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Sunafterrain, OMG, everything about this post hit home!

My exN married 3 women who were obese and unattractive. Ok, my friend recently told me, "Cali, men look at you all the time, but you don't act on it." I stay fit and I'm attractive. I asked my ExN about this oddity and got raged on and abused. Wife #1, married young, I think married her for her big family, still stays in touch with most of them. Wife #2, after much strife between him and me, he finally says he wanted a mother figure for his kids after he divorced wife 1 (for cheating supposedly). Wife #3, weight wasn't her only issue, but hey, she had money and bought him lots of gifts. I racked my head trying to figure this out, major CD! Also, the sex...yes, it faded, got old, wasn't that good after awhile. I've been looking back to how sex was in the idealization phase, and even that lacked intimacy and true connection. I could have been any woman, and the high was in doing the things he wanted that were new and different for me and for him. He was totally sexual, and at times, I started feeling like it was all about the sex. In the final d&d, he started criticizing the sex and comparing it to past women, bringing up situations and explicit details. It was a horrible assault to my senses and my soul. It is probably for me one of the most painful moments I struggle to get over.
Sep 3 - 2PM (Reply to #21)
onwithmylife
onwithmylife's picture

sunatferrain

let me get this straight, you are saying that everything he said to me in the compliment department was all a fake to get something from me? Is that a correct reading? because he sometimes he would some very complimentary things in bed that seem to come from the heart, like they were coming from a different person , with nothing to be gained from what he said. Maybe it is a self esteem issue on my part, as i have suffered from low self esteem most of my life, never feeling that attractive........also maybe i was he exception, but our sex life was great to the very end for 15 years and he never left me for another woman, he moved away to become a hermit but then again he is older, in his late 60's and with ED problems now..
Sep 3 - 2PM (Reply to #26)
Used
Used's picture

ONWITHMYLIFE

I AGREE WITH YOU..HE HAD NO REASON TO LIE...HE WAS ALREDY GETTING WHAT HE WANTED...I UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM..
Sep 3 - 3PM (Reply to #28)
onwithmylife
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sunafterrain

I see what you are saying if you believe the good he said, you have to believe the bad as well, like he called me cunt, whore, slut, advertising on the internet for free sex, all total lies, .but yet the good he said especially in bed, when he had nothing to gain, were very kind and I thought honest, i still question that you have to accept BOTH the good and bad as all being an illusion, maybe i am just being stubborn...........and I do see your perspective
Sep 3 - 3PM (Reply to #29)
Sunafterrain
Sunafterrain's picture

onwithmylife

It takes time. But I believe this is the single most difficult thing that survivors hang onto and that creates more cog/dis and intrusive thoughts. You can't consider just one part of pathology, but ALL of it. What you are feeling, validates the idea that the idealization stage is the most dangerous aspect of pathology. I think that part of holding on so tight to the good, gives meaning to the experience when in reality the whole relationship was meaningless... What has meaning, is not the fake idealization and the major lies he told, even while manipulating, but what comes in the aftermath with acceptance and learning about pathology, what it does, how it does it. This revelation for me, has greatly diminished my cog/dis. GREATLY. Each good memory that comes up, that created the cog/dis, hes' good he's bad garbage, I counter with, yea but he did THIS and he did THAT (all the rotten pathology he showed me). I listen to the Thomas Sheridan tapes over and over. I reread Women Who LOve Psychopaths with new eyes and studied the part about the psychopaths brain. I look at everything, start to finish. All an illusion and ya know what? The good things he did as well as the bad, don't mean shit to me anymore. It wasn't an accurate reflection of a healthy relationship or myself. I've been incredibly humbled by this knowledge because he used my narcissism (which we all have) and turned it around on me. He took my positive qualities and MAGNIFIED THEM TO THIS PERFECT MIRROR REFLECTION OF MYSELF. And in the end, it's as ridiculous as the devaluation. NO ONE is THAT great. But it's easy to want to believe. I'll never fall for that garbage again. Ever.
Sep 3 - 4PM (Reply to #30)
onwithmylife
onwithmylife's picture

sunafterrain

your point is well stated and true, all of it was meaningless, as he is pathologically disturbed and none of it can be taken for reality. you presented a good case..It still is hard to digest 15 years of my life for nothing, I guess other than to teach me about myself...as you said, never again.......
Sep 3 - 4PM (Reply to #31)
Sunafterrain
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onwithmylife

I completely understand that with a 20 year marriage to a violent P and then a ten year relationship with a covert P. the last was far more dangerous. It takes time. But there can be meaning from those experiences. :)
Sep 3 - 3PM (Reply to #27)
Sunafterrain
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Onwithmylife

WOOT!! Good girl! YOU GOT IT, that is EXACTLY IT!
Sep 3 - 2PM (Reply to #22)
Sunafterrain
Sunafterrain's picture

onwithmylife

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, IF your man was pathological, but if he was not, would you be here? Ask yourself this question after having asked me what you have here. Was everything bad he said about you during the devaluing true? Were you what he said in all the bad he said about you? It wasn't, was it? Same with the idealizing. It wasn't true. It wasn't REAL. And yes, it was manipulation, just as the devaluing was full of lies about you. This is not meant to lower your self esteem further, On, it's meant as an insight to help you heal, to help you embrace the truth of ALL Of it, as painful as it may be, to help you THINK about the red flags that keep you blinded by the "good" he said and did. If you don't believe the bad, why would you believe the good when it comes to a pathological? It's just business for them, as Thomas Sheridan says.
Sep 3 - 2PM (Reply to #23)
Used
Used's picture

AND AGAIN

I THINK OF ALL THE GOOD THINGS EXNH SAID TO ME...I BELIEVED THEM...SO IGOTTA BELIEVE THE BAD....IF I BELIEVE...A THEN I HAVE GOT TO BELIEVE B...YES? I DONT WANT TO BUT NOW I HAVE NO CHOICE DO I?.....IF ALL THAT IS SO....I AM HAVING SECOND THOUGHTS..
Sep 3 - 2PM (Reply to #24)
Sunafterrain
Sunafterrain's picture

NO Used

You believe NONE of it. THE WHOLE THING was a fraud. You are YOU, special YOU now, without the idealization AND devaluation! WOOT! Honey, he was pathological before you met him and he is now. It had nothing to do with you at all. NOTHING. It was all about him, always.
Sep 3 - 2PM (Reply to #25)
Used
Used's picture

THEN I DO NOT BELIEVE HE WAS

THEN I DO NOT BELIEVE HE WAS A NARC OR PYSCOPATH...HE WAS JUST AN ARSEHOLE...
Sep 3 - 1PM (Reply to #18)
Used
Used's picture

SUNAFTERRAIN

THIS IS SO TRUE...EVERYTIME[EVEN NOW] WHEN I THINK OF MYEXNH...I THINK NO HE CANT BE A PYSCOPATH...HE WAS VERY UNDERSTANDING AND ACCEPTING WITH ME ABOUT SEX.... HE WAS A PYSCOPATH IN EVERY OTHER WAY...I STILL CANNOT GET OUT OF THE MINDSET THAT,THAT MEANS HE WASENT A PYSCOPATH.. THANKYOU FOR THIS .
Sep 3 - 1PM (Reply to #19)
Sunafterrain
Sunafterrain's picture

Used

Yea, mine played that understanding sexual thing too. All bullshit. you see, even when they're MANIPULATING YOU, it's all about POWER OVER. It's the manipulation that's so hard to recover from because we thought it was real. He was merely mirroring to you what YOU wanted and knew that your perceptions of what he was doing (Manipulating) would work. Another difficulty with all of this and the dynamics of the relationship is that sooooo many say the sex was fantastic. Well the sex wasn't for you, even when it was good, it was for him, for power and control and they ALWAYS use it as a weapon. They also make us feel that sex is the most important part of the relationship, so that we IGNORE what goes on outside of bed. It's the whole of a healthy dynamic between couples that defines the relationship. One of the things I've noticed, is that as the psychopathic bond breaks down and we get tired, the sex isn't as good, or we don't want it anymore...it seems that it's the last to go and the last hold on us the psychopath has.
Sep 3 - 1PM (Reply to #20)
needing2know
needing2know's picture

Maybe that's why mine left

Maybe that's why mine left lol the night he dumped me he tried to get a piece of ass lol and I told him no! Because to me I just didn't want it , he sucked in bed and I just didn't want to bother! Maybe thats why when he left he told me "I don't want this shit and I don't need this shit" Well trust me I didn't want it!
Sep 3 - 1PM
onwithmylife
onwithmylife's picture

sunafterrain

maybe this is just semantics but i believe like my therapist said 98% of this was an illusion, he might have found you veey attractive, good in bed, whatever, and he might have actually meant it in his sick mind, yet it was also a ploy to get what he wanted from you, does this make sense to you?
Sep 3 - 1PM
mystwoman
mystwoman's picture

This is a really insightful

This is a really insightful post. Every word is so true. Everything about the relationship is a lie. I fell in love with an illusion, a fraud. Once I realized that (and I went NC) I could start healing. The part about them using a persona in the idealization phase really rang home with me, too. Xnh D&D'd me 15 months ago, and took up with OW in a long distance relationship, he resembles nothing of the "man" I thought I knew when we were together. Xnh has done a complete persona make-over, which I'm sure is mirroring OW. He did the same thing when he met me. I'm betting xnh's first ex-wife doesn't recognize him any longer either. It's very interesting to me that just yesterday, my best friend made a comment about how she's always seen xnh as a "ghost". She's never bought into his charade. Her comment to me is that she sees him as a hollow, empty shell. He has nothing but the wind blowing him around. It must be pretty pathetic to think you're as superior as xnh does, and not even actually have his own personality. He is merely a chameleon to those around him. Xnh has even told me in the past that he KNOWS he takes on the traits of others. So yes, his behavior is deliberate, manipulative, and cruel. He KNOWS what he's doing, and xnh just doesn't care about the impact of his actions on anyone but himself. Nothing is ever his fault either. My friend mentioned this "ghost" comment to me right after xnh had been in her work area whining about how he'd ridden his motorcycle 65 miles one way to work each day during the monsoon season, and he'd gotten soaked in a huge deluge on his ride home the night before. My best friend told him that no can be a "victim in their own life" all the time like xnh claims, and she has no sympathy for the stupid. She has never liked xnh. Personally, when I heard the story, I was wishing that he'd gotten hit by a hail storm (not unheard of this time of year). Golf or baseball sized hail while xnh was on his motorcycle with no rain gear would have been really satisfying for me. :) However, the thought of xnh riding 65 miles soaking wet in a cloud burst/lightning storm will just have to do for now. The story made my day to hear about it. rofl.

______________________________________________________
God sometimes removes a person from your life for your protection. Don't run after them.

Sep 3 - 12PM
Caligirl
Caligirl's picture

Sun, thanks for this!

Amazing post! It helped so much!! I'm feeling stuck at 5 mos N/C, and it's been a tough week (I think from reading here, there must be something about 5 mos.) Sheridan is great! Good point about how each of us encountered some differences in each P (mine is a N/P/ADHD/Cluster-B, ugg), but very similar tools used, lack of empathy, etc.
Sep 3 - 12PM (Reply to #10)
FarmGirl
FarmGirl's picture

The look in his eyes says it

The look in his eyes says it all. Err I mean the emptiness in his eyes... Think about it, remember their eyes when you said something that "required" them to have a normal emotion like empathy... It is like looking at fish eyes... Yikes.
Sep 3 - 1PM (Reply to #11)
Caligirl
Caligirl's picture

farmgirl, yes, yes, yes!

One time, I'm laying on the bed crying, bc he's being mean. We're in a confined area. I turn and look to find him standing over me. I see nothing but coldness, emptiness and evil. My reaction inside is one of being startled, disbelief, shock, confusion. WTF? Monsters, that's what they are!
Sep 3 - 1PM (Reply to #12)
FarmGirl
FarmGirl's picture

The last time this happened

The last time this happened was during Hurricane Irene. His XW was in Virginia on business & his 2 sons were in NY. We were watching CNN at the local yogurt shop (we don't have TV at home) and I saw the hurricane map which showed that Virginia was in big trouble. I said to him "I'm so worried about your ex!" He said coldly "There's nothing we can do." I said "You can send her good thoughts and try calling your boys to see how they are holding up. They must be worried sick about their mom." He said "Maybe so." He never called. To someone who doesn't know an N personally they'd never understand what I mean by this conversation... To us - it's part of the whole ugly package.
Sep 3 - 1PM (Reply to #13)
needing2know
needing2know's picture

Evertime one of my family

Evertime one of my family members died, I would cry and he would say " why are you upset there is nothing oyu could have done about it" So heartless, so cold , so uncaring, He never cared about how I felt and when I would get upset he would always ask me whats wrong, I would just tell him nothing because if I did tell him he would always say the same thing, there is nothing you can do about it!
Sep 3 - 3PM (Reply to #14)
Sunafterrain
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Needing

typical. They hate it when you cry, unless they are the ones that MAKE you cry, then it's showtime!
Sep 3 - 12PM
FarmGirl
FarmGirl's picture

Wow! Reading this was

Wow! Reading this was intense! This part is so hard for me too...just realizing it wasn't about me, for me or because of me. It's all about him eh?