NEED YOUR INPUT

27 posts / 0 new

#1 Dec 8 - 10AM

Anonymous (not verified)

NEED YOUR INPUT

I have read research on their behavior and have read so many articles that when a Narc suffers a trauma or loss such as the death of a parent they were close to (or that idolized them I should say) they can change, but it takes a life altering tragedy to change them, is this true? I have also heard they mellow out a bit as they age, but still have the pathological traits that are permanent. My Narc's mother just died, his mother worshiped him, there could be no better son that him, she left everything to him in her will, house, money, the whole thing. He had stated his life will never be the same without her and he will never get over her death. I wonder will such an experience make him see the ills of his ways? Will the sexual perversion die down will he take a look at his behavior and the life he has lead in a different way now? Will he now try to be faithful to his GF and lead a more normal life since this severe narcisstic injury with the loss of his mother? Here is MY input, I think they are temporarily set back and go through their own weird grieving process, they grieve but not as we do, they grieve for the attention and love and adoration that loved one gave them all their lives and now its GONE, its a grief of loss of a HUGE SUPPLY that loved one provided for them, eventually maybe they always revert back to what they are, I dont think losing a mother will turn them into faithful partners and they will cease all masturbation, whats your input?

#2 Dec 13 - 3PM

Carolyn

There are 3 types of

There are 3 types of narcissists: genetic, child abuse, entitlement jobs. the first has no capacity to alter behavior as they lack cellular development in the anterior lobe of their brain. the second developed narcissistic behavior to cope with severe child abuse or abuse from a bi-polar or schizophrinc parent. the third is the tiger Woods, Bill Clinton type. Men with big jobs, big egos, privilege, who think they can do whatever they want. the last two might have some wiggle room to change but they like who they are. In the event of a traumatic death of a mother they would search for another to take her place. the adult children of abusive parents often idealize their abusive parent way out of all reason. It is a twisted life they live in where black is white and white is black and everyone arround them is abused and confused. The girlfriend needs to move on like you did and get free.

#3 Dec 8 - 2PM

TexN (not verified)

If My ExN lost...

One of his parents, it would be no big deal. He hasn't spoken to his father in about 8 years (live in the same city) & has probably talked to his Mom about 5 times in the past 6 yrs. He has no use for them or anyone else in his family. He also has two brothers that he doesn't keep in contact with. No cross words between them, he just has no use for them. Probably because he can't get his "supply" from them.

#4 Dec 8 - 11AM

JusticeSeeker (not verified)

I think it has to be on their terms

I hear what you are saying. I have often wondered if losing me as a lifelong friend/companion would shake my Ex up and maybe he would "smell the coffee". I have read online, that some Narc. do decide that something has to change in their lives once they hit their rock bottom point. In your Ex's case, losing his mother just may trigger some emotional point in his mind. What he does with this new found range of emotions is hard to say. He may soften and think about what goes on in his life. If it is costly enough to him now that his mother is gone, he may search for answers to his pain. Or, he may go the opposite way. It is frustrating. I think it boils down to their view of themselves. The benefits of examining himself and changing have to appeal to him. I believe it takes years for them to reach a level of being a better person and truly reaching a place of having emotions, once they decide they want to change. If it is true that Narcissists actually have a differnt brain function, then I don't see how they can change without years of intensive psychotherapy. They would almost have to learn to be a civilized and caring individual; almost like being trained. I wonder if a true Narcissist would put up with that kind of prolonged treatment. I would imagine if the dedication is there, they would continue on with their goals. In my opinion, it isn't worth the risk for those of us who have left our relationships to stick our hands back in the fire with these men/women. To me, my Ex is now a walking time bomb in a glass case. He is nice to look at, but pick up the case and get to close and he may or may not explode and finally rip me to pieces. Having said all of this, if my Ex N were to contact me tomorrow and tell me he is in therapy because he knows he is not doing well and needs help, I would be in one heck of a mess. Part of me would be leaping with joy, the other part of me would cry uncontrollably. The trust I used to have in him is gone. I would never be able to trust a word he said. I can't waste any more of my life to this man. It would hurt me soooo bad, but I would have to remain with no contact and just let him go. It would make me sick to do so, but he made me sick for a long time, so it isn't happening again by his hands.

#5 Dec 8 - 4PM (Reply to #21)

mmacali (not verified)

I long thought this to be true

I used to tell my N, "One of these days something horrible and tragic is going to happen and you are going to be hurting 10 fold". My xN had moments of "clarity". There is a song that whenever he heard it, he suddenly reverted into a little boy. He would cry uncontrollably and latch onto me at the legs (like a little boy gripping his mother) and he would tell me that the song reminds him of his mom and dad. Well, his mom and dad are perfectly healthy and always available for him. I would beg him to call his mom on Mother's Day and her bday (same as mine), because she would be so happy to hear from him. Never once did he. I often wondered how he would "feel" if one of the times he left me at a restaurant with no money, cell phone, etc. and I was abducted and killed by someone due to his neglect - would finally feel pain and suffering? I don't know and I, at this point, don't care. Too bad, so sad...I cried over horrible trauma he put me through and I got over it. So will he - don't let an N fool you into believeing that he is genuinely sad over ANYTHING.

#6 Dec 10 - 11AM (Reply to #22)

agnesmurphy17

Your's too?

"he suddenly reverted into a little boy. He would cry uncontrollably and latch onto me" So your N indulged in all that "histronic" weeping as mine did? I realized that this is really "a secret weapon." For me, this uncontrollable weeping just really tugged on me. I felt so much sympathy & empathy. He could just turn any bad behavior around & suddenly get my concern. When I began to feel that it was all an act. When I started to pull away. When he realized he was losing control over me . . . these histronic displays escalated. Sometimes I felt like a mother leaving a young child at daycare--oh the weeping & wailing. And, like the baby-sitter, I was just getting so fed up because I knew the door would not even be firmly shut when the child would run off to the toys-mother forgotten. Just theater to get the mother to do what the child wanted. Same with my N. Manipulation. What kind of a grown man approaches his lover like a weeping child? Nevertheless, it works because I suppose I am a woman & hard-wired to take care of the needy. And, stupidly, in the beginning, I thought this man was in touch with his emotions & not afraid to express them. Irony of all ironies . . . the man is an abyss of emptiness. All emotion is just a mimicry. The only true emotions he feels are contempt, rage, & envy.

#7 Dec 10 - 11AM (Reply to #23)

time_to_move_on

yup

Mine too. You are so bang-on about the theatre comment agnesmurphy. I used to be a right sucker for it. Usually it would happen when I was trying to get on with my life, he'd suddenly start these gut-wrenching sobbing sessions. I suppose it only happened about 6 times in a year but that was bad enough. One time he went to see his completely mad mother and stepfather (for a whole week, despite saying he hated them), came back, sat there, and cried. I have nothing against crying, but I can see now he did it to manipulate, he'd just moved in with me and wanted to get my pity so I would stay with him despite him treating me so badly. Along with that was the "gentle-crying" out of the corner of his eyes when he'd shoved me/threatened to kill me. Or just been a drunken moron. At the "party" after my mother's funeral he started being aggressive generally to one of my aunts (he used to almost snarl/give off this horrible air about him). I had to taken him into another room, speak to him like a child and say "stop this now". He then started crying on the day of my mother's funeral to try and manipulate me! Argh. Our last row, I'd gone through his emails and realised the ex he supposedly hated was really "sexy and special", along with other things. You've never seen someone get round to my house so fast, may have had something to do with me screaming I was about to call/email the other woman. He then proceeded to get down on his knees and sob and say "please, please, I didn't do anything". I was genuinely crying as I'd just had enough of him. Of course most of these crying sessions were wrapped around rages. It's only now I've realised it was ALL an act. I don't know how they do it, I'd find it impossible to mimic like that.

#8 Dec 10 - 12PM (Reply to #24)

time_to_move_on

and to add to that...

I used to get a cold trickle of fear when I thought about either his mother dying or the woman he supposedly loved, his ex-gfs mother. I knew he'd have destroyed me completely if I'd been around, with rage/whatever. But I'm still not sure he really got grief, I tried to reason with him when I was devastated over my mother dying 3 mths after (he'd left me a week or so after, then came back), and say "what about if your ex-gfs mother dies, how would you feel?". He'd sort of shake his head as if it didn't quite compute, or perhaps it was his lack of empathy to me, as he told me "he felt sad too" and "others cared about my mother, not just me". This was his response when I told him I'd not felt supported by him.

#9 Dec 8 - 1PM (Reply to #20)

cynthia (not verified)

i AGREE

i WOULD never bank on them even modifying their behavior to some degree, and I would never jump for joy thinking he was better because of the years he took from my life, there is no forgiving on my part for his intent and betrayal he inflicted on me, to say a person who did such a thing can just turn around and be NORMAL, is NOT POSSIBLE. Their illness is hard wired even with the few things they can change as they get older, its not enough, the trail of destruction they have left behind them will always be with them so to say they wake up one day and care for all those they have damaged is not realistic. Mine was upset with me that I didnt attend his mothers service, sorry I cant stand in front of you and say, sorry for your loss when I lost a great deal more than he has ever experienced, I would have looked at his mother in the casket and expressed how sorry I was that her son was a predator and she never knew it wondering what she would have thought if she knew her son liked to urinate on people and degraded women in the manner he did, knowing her son was a sick sex addict who destroyed women but let her go to her grave in peace he was all she had so in that respect some things are better left buried. I know this is a childish perspective but I am not sorry for his loss and pain now I lost both my parents and he took advantage of me because of that very situation, he inflicted some more pain in my life he didnt care about my loss and I dont care about his loss, he caused greater loss in my life, he is experiencing about 1/5th of what I endured, in my estimation he needs more loss and pain and I hope he gets it because thats what he deserves.

#10 Dec 8 - 11AM

agnesmurphy17

Loss of the N Parent

I have read that loss of the N parent is one of the most traumatic experiences of a lifetime for an N. However, I have read that Ns become worse thereafter because the N parent somehow reined them in. After the N parent dies, there is nobody they fear or respect. And I have read that Ns get worse as they get older because they are no longer in control, they are aging & weaker. Oh brother, more temper tantrums. Be careful. N may try to contact you in this stressful period in his life.

#11 Dec 8 - 11AM

TexN (not verified)

Cyn

I thought Narcs got worse with age. Isn't that so Barbara?

#12 Dec 8 - 11PM (Reply to #17)

Barbara (not verified)

worse with age

Narcs get worse - the majority of them the aging process doesn't agree with them death is too much reality for them they usually start to act out in more/ different ways... and start moving up that pathology scale towards SOCIOPATHY don't stick around to find out. ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website

#13 Dec 8 - 10AM

betteroff

cynthia

My xnbf lost his father 2 years ago. I was by narc's side the whole time his father was sick. The narc just got worse after his his father's death. He never really even talked about his father except on his fathers birthdays. It was as if history was erased just like "me".

#14 Dec 8 - 10AM

The Girlfriend ...

Cynthia

I agree with your conclusion. I think that an 'injury' to an N would only produce a temporary set back as they adjust to not having the steady/stable supply, esp. supplied by a N's mother. In fact, perhaps this loss will send your N into a whole other direction.. trying to replace the exact 'type' of supply his mother gave him...trying to find someone who had some qualities of his mother...esp. someone who would adore him unconditionally like his mother who thought he could do no wrong... I just don't know what it would take for an N to change...as they are so incapable of personal insight into their own actions and the affect they have on others lives...and don't really seem to care. Your N may even use his recent loss to gain as much sympathy from others, esp. women, as much as possible. They really enjoy playing the sympathy card...it is ridiculous how many women fall for it. (not that I was immune either...before my N) Now that I have been in a relationship with a raging 'N'...I have learned to spot the manipulations for what they are. I agree with you about this. I wonder what kind of loss would be life changing for them...I think it would take the entire universe to cave in before they are knocked off their own pedestal and away from a mirror...

#15 Dec 9 - 7PM (Reply to #14)

Monica

I agree with you, Cynthia

My N suffered two serious narcissistic injuries in the span of about 5 months. The first was the near-death of a family member. He lost his pathological space during this time because of having to care for the family member. When the crisis was over, my N was extremely dysphoric and depressed. Then he suffered a second N-injury and that made him way worse in his N ways that ever before. Everything escalated...his arrogance, egotism, the lying, the overspending, the bragging and love of money and possessions, the self-centeredness - it all got much worse. There is no hope for him, I am convinced of that. He will never, ever get "better," he will never be anything but an arrogant, self-serving narcissistic asshole. He is the center of his universe and always will be, he is a spoiled rotten adult and acts it in every way, everyone else is merely a tool in his toolbox to pull out when he needs something. He will never, ever change.

#16 Dec 8 - 1PM (Reply to #2)

nebraska_sue

life changing moments for a narc

The way I understand it, it's the social control of family, friends and community that keeps the narc somewhat 'contained'. Wanting to preserve the image that 'loved ones' have of them. Knowing that people are watching and keeping track of their actions. They want to appear normal as possible. Filtering behavior (at least information about behavior) so it meets the expectations of others. As parents pass on, sibilings establish their own families and friends become more distant (as adult relationships do), they will filter less. If no one is checking up on them as much, if there is no one to hold them accountable, the filters get dropped entirely. Also, I've read that as they get older and less attractive, it gets harder for them to secure supply so they start taking more risks and developing more 'superficial' forms of NS. I've given this some thought lately too. I think it's counter to the narc nature to dwell on loss for too long. Any loss or NI is going to sting, but their defense mechanisms will start to kick in. As soon as new supply, especially quality supply, is found it's like hitting the reset button. They might mourn their losses in a way - their entitlement has been compromised by the permanent loss of someone they depended on. It's a poor me, I've been abandoned rather than maybe I should have appreciated them more when they were here. The narc who was in my life suffered a major loss of an important person. Someone he depended on walked away from him after figuring out what his game was. He paid a lot of lip service to 'getting help' and 'healing'. He was forced into introspection and put on a very convincing front of humility and regret. For one, it was because he had been unmasked in front of everyone in his life and he had to recover his reputation. Also he thought it would get this person back into his life. When it didn't he went right back to his old behavior, but in a more careful and covert way. He's completely aware of what he is. He manages his life around his disorder - the whole time presenting himself as a repentant and caring soul. He plays his old hurts for every ounce of sympathy he can get. Presents himself as wounded and tender. Blames his oddness and inconsistencies on his 'emotional problems'. He's got the charm to pull it off, and people eat it up. It's all smoke and mirrors - self concern and self perservation. He gives only when it is in his best interest. He can hurt for himself, but he'll never hurt for anyone else.

#17 Dec 8 - 8PM (Reply to #8)

agnesmurphy17

Nebraska Sue - Wow!

You explained my N to perfection. I met him when he came to the States for employment. Maybe to recreate himself after his divorce? Don't know. But, in his own country he always lived within an hour's drive of his parents & everybody he ever knew his whole life. He had been with his wife since he was 17 & they were married over 20 years. And she was 13 years older than him & she was his first teacher in the subject which would become his life's work. I have often reflected that here in America with me . . . he was more aggressive & more abusive than he was over there in his home country near his family. His parents "contained" him . . . he was "filtering" as you call it. And his wife was a parental figure in being 13 years older & his early mentor. She had more control over him that I could ever exert being his age & with no particular academic achievments necessary to him. Where did you learn all this? Any books to recommend? Thank you so much for your insights. Very helpful to me.

#18 Dec 9 - 4PM (Reply to #10)

nebraska_sue

my sources...

Hello agnesmurphy17 Honestly I've not yet read a book on any of this. I've just read practically everything available on the internet, several times over. I've visited all the different support forums and read everything. Before I knew who Sam Vaknin (sp?) was, I read everything he has online several times over. I don't agree with everything he has written, can see where parts drip with his grandiosity and where he gives some really bad advice. He's not recommended by this site for a good reason but there were things that match up with what I have witnessed over half my life. Some of what I said are things that the narc (formerly) in my life has either said to me, said to other people, or I've witnessed it happen. I've known him for a long time, in a small town where everything gets around. Similar to your experience, close family and friend connections kept him 'in line' into his 30s. Knowing that people talk and that 'authority figures' were listening. People he either feared or needed. Those he idealized because they had something he respected. I watched how much he's changed as he's lost all the things that kept him reigned in. Parents are passed on. Friends are happy and settled down. He tries to have relationships but they don't last. According to him it's their problem, but the evidence mounted up that it's not. He gets older and more out-dated and his pool of potenial NS shrinks. So he changes his methods and expectations. Becomes more and more isolated. Like others mentioned on here, prefers phone and internet relationships. Knows that the face-to-face brings on the beginning of the end for him. Sorry to take so long to answer your question. I wish I had a more concrete answer for you. I didn't realize any of it at the time. It only makes sense now that I understand the nature of the beast.

#19 Dec 9 - 5PM (Reply to #11)

agnesmurphy17

Nebraska Sue

Thank you. When I started to think there was something wrong with my husband, I started internet search. Everything always led to that Sam V fella. I read a lot of his stuff & I got really scared because he was seemingly describing my husband. Even what my husband would do in a given situation in the future! I'd be like: "Whoa! I read about this last week & now my husband's saying or doing exactly the same thing." It was the twilight zone for me. I just saw the documentary "I, Psychopath" about Sam V. Very interesting. The internet saved my sanity. If I had not had the internet, I might still be there with my husband working on my "communication" problems, & all the other issues which were the problem in our relationship. Funny. Everything that was wrong in our relationship was all about me.

#20 Dec 9 - 6PM (Reply to #12)

nebraska_sue

me too, agnesmurphy17

I couldn't bring myself to watch 'I, Psychopath' but I read what others had to say about it and how disturbing it is. My imagination is active enough, after being exposed to this narc dude for so long! He messed with my head when I was young, but I had the big yearn for him regardless. I bought into the whole 'misunderstood, harmless eccentric' thing, which is what brought him gunning for me eventually. I thought I was SO freakin lucky to finally have his attention! Erf. Twilight zone describes it perfectly! I consider myself fortunate, that didn't marry, buy property or produce children with this guy. My misfortune lies in half a life time of believing that I was flawed and unworthy of this 'great love'. Errrrf. The internet was so important to my liberation. I was reading things that made SO MUCH SENSE, in a forever of not understanding any of it. One day, he told me about my sense of entitlement and how it was the key to all my problems. MY sense of entitlement! After I bent over backwards to try to be everything he demanded. Thanks for giving the the key to your disorder, d*ckhead!

#21 Dec 9 - 6PM (Reply to #13)

Barbara (not verified)

warning (again)

there's a list of recommended reading in a post on the blog. STAY FAR AWAY FROM VAKNIN... he's not a real doctor; he's a SOCIOPATH!!! Give NO WEIGHT to any of his stuff. EVER. ~~~~~~~~~ The truth will set you free... but first it will piss you off - Gloria Steinem Visit My Abuse Website

#22 Dec 8 - 10PM (Reply to #9)

TexN (not verified)

I was the older woman too...

My exN lied to me when we met and told me he was older than he really was. I am 12 yrs older than him. People couldn't tell that our age difference was that big (don't know if I looked younger or he looked older) but regardless, I think he was just looking for someone to take care of him. The rare times that we did get together with his uncle and his cousins, he portrayed us to be the "perfect couple". He didn't want his family to know we had any issues and wanted them to think everything was wonderful. I had become pretty good friends with his cousin's wife and I called her one time and told her the N was threatening to commit suicide. Oh my gosh, all hell broke loose. He could not believe I told his cousin's wife his business and how dare I say that to her. I also told her that he wanted to sign his parental rights over and that really made him look like crap! He had no contact with them for almost a year after that...and then he reappeared as if nothing!

#23 Dec 8 - 3PM (Reply to #7)

itreallyisabouthim

My STBX Narc

Got much more entitled and d*ckish after the one loss I've seen him sustain. And it was a horrible one. His only sibling killed herself in a truly awful and violent way. He never grieved as I am familiar with grieving. He went to the funeral and stuff, but after that it was back to his all about me existence, but with a new found determination that it never be about anyone BUT him.

#24 Dec 8 - 2PM (Reply to #3)

baddream

All true-Nebraska Sue

I agree with you on all your points. For them, it is one big act and important to appear to others that they are normal. It is a lot of work keeping the mask on and when a life changing event occurs (death, divorce, etc.) the mask sometimes crumbles and the N will fall apart. I have also heard that when they age it is harder for them to have normal social interactions and attract the same kinds of supply and very often they fall into deep depressions. I suppose when they have reached that point they have burned many bridges with family and friends. As for the narc changing with the death of a parent, I do not believe that would happen. Depending on the narcs relationship to that particular parent the outcome would be different. With a very close relationship, I suppose the narc would have a very hard time losing all of the supply. My narc used to tell me he would not even attend his own mother's funeral.

#25 Dec 8 - 7PM (Reply to #4)

Clover18

My ex-NH lost his mother 8

My ex-NH lost his mother 8 months ago and he's worse than ever http://knittingattheguillotine.blogspot.com/ http://stoptherollercoaster.blogspot.com/ http://byebyejekyllandhyde.blogspot.com/ http://libertyfromlies.blogspot.com/

http://knittingattheguillotine.blogspot.com/
http://stoptherollercoaster.blogspot.com/
http://byebyejekyllandhyde.blogspot.com/
http://libertyfromlies.blogspot.com/

#26 Dec 8 - 10PM (Reply to #5)

mmacali (not verified)

Clover18

I believe that to be true. N's, especially as they lose their looks and, seemingly, world of supporters of their charm, only get worse. Losing a parent = losing a supply.

#27 Dec 10 - 11AM (Reply to #6)

Clover18

She was a nightmare too

Don't like to speak ill of the deceased but his mother was a bloody nightmare. MY 15 year old son was her first grandchild but she always referred to him as "the boy" because she could never remember his name. When he was 12, she told "the boy", that if he didn't immediately return some lent disk she thought he had lost (which he didn't even have because it was in the narc's car), that she never wanted to see him ever again! What an evil witch she was to say such a thing to her own grandson, whose narc father had just dumped him to live with an amoral tramp's kids. After the narc and I split up, she was forever phoning me for attention cos he had gone AWOL with the tramp. She never stopped bitching about the tramp (whom she had not met then). Then when she and I had a big row cos I found out she had been lying to me just like her narc son and I went NC with her, she suddenly became very cosy with the tramp. Not because she liked the tramp. Not because she hated me (I had spent 20 years doing things for her that her own sons could not be bothered with). But because the narc son had shown up with the tramp and although she couldn't get her required supply of attention from my exNH himself, the tramp was OOOOOZING fresh new, tasty supply of course. Much better than tired old boring supply from put-upon daughter-in-law. I didn't go the funeral. Didn't want to witness the Oscar-winning performance from exNH. http://knittingattheguillotine.blogspot.com/ http://stoptherollercoaster.blogspot.com/ http://byebyejekyllandhyde.blogspot.com/ http://libertyfromlies.blogspot.com/

http://knittingattheguillotine.blogspot.com/
http://stoptherollercoaster.blogspot.com/
http://byebyejekyllandhyde.blogspot.com/
http://libertyfromlies.blogspot.com/

Path Forward Buy Now Reviews
All About Her Buy Now Reviews
All About Him Buy Now Reviews