Misunderstandings

My mother is a devout Catholic... BOTH her parents are Narcs. She hated the ex-P from the get-go, and she believes in self-sacrifice and forgiveness like any other devout Catholic. There ARE limits. I wasn't going to sacrifice my dreams for someone who was mere potential. I wasn't going to sacrifice the rest of my life for a deathbed confession that might or might not happen. I wasn't going to sacrifice my soul to save his. Some sacrifices cannot be made. There ARE limits.

I do agree that being a successful woman, does not mean that you have high self esteem. MyxN was very educated, but that means shit about his emotional level. I am one that believes lacking a strong sense of self CAN play a factor in being involved with them, but not always. Sometimes the low self esteem comes ONLY AFTER being brainwashed by them. I also think there is SEVERAL other factors that COULD come into play ie) being a highly compassionate and forgiving person, past exposure to PD and being preconditioned, being a highly committed and loyal person etc. These traits are all discussed in S.B.'s book ( are we allowed to mention that book anymore?) Anyways, Bresies summed it up well when she said that we all approach ground zero from different circumstances. I think that is so important to emphasize. There is no exact formula for the type of person that gets into these relationships. If you are breathing, you can be a target for sure. But there is different reasons for each of us as to why we stay. Regardless of what the factors are, IT IS NEVER OUR FAULT. I do not an any way think anyone is to blame for this happening to them.

I truly believe that the people on this forum have the best interests of others in their hearts, and the tough talk is meant only to help. However, one of the pitfalls of communication is a person speaks in absolutes - You will, You are, etc. Trying to TELL a person (that you don't know personally) what they are, what they will do is going to put them on the defensive. Particularly negative things. If you want to motivate or change someones mind, you must select your words carefully. People have to feel comfort with a new idea, they have to own it themselves, or it won't mean anything to them. In the same vein, NEVER try to tell a person WHAT they think. Any intelligent person is going to reject that. Who are we to assume what is going on in the heart or mind of another person. We might have a damn good idea, or THINK we know. Personally, I get insulted when somebody tries to tell me that they know me better than I know myself. Even if they turn out to be correct. This is pretty basic, but the model of communication is SENDER -> MESSAGE -> RECEIVER. Where the process breaks down is when the receiver rejects the message because of whatever - it doesn't gel with their world view, they don't trust the sender... The bulk of the responsibility for the MESSAGE lies with the sender. An effective sender must take loads of factors into consideration when designing the messsage and even then, the message isn't going to be accepted by everyone. I'm not surprised that people are getting offended. It's TOTALLY what happens when delicate subjects are being discussed. Just like the process of recognizing that we are in an abusive relationship and then embarking on our recovery, we come to things in different ways. We have SO MUCH in common as survivors, but it's a mistake to think we are all the same. What works for me, what I need to confront might not be the same for someone else. And MAYBE it is the same, but they have to get their in their own way, and in their own time. Boundaries are for everyone! We all need to recognize that if someone says NO, for whatever reason, it's time to step back and give them some space. Just my two cents. I can see where there are exceptions (like where is the room for debate if everyone is always pussyfooting around) - so I guess it's just some food for thought.

Low self esteem comes in all shapes and sizes..... And you are so right Jen. Bad relationship just don't happen to healthy confident people. The bad men/women can't charm a confident woman/man. I have never seen it happen.

Well said Jen79 I do believe it is important to stand back from the situation and view the big picture including our childhood/cultural conditioning and social pressures etc. Some of us are more scarred than others that is for sure, and we have to work even harder to reclaim ourselves. I had been taking narcissistic abuse since I was born and the one protector I had (my dad) died when I was 7 - I was desentisised to narc behaviour and didn't bat an eye when a significant other mocked me, chastised me or put me down because I was so used to being treated like that by my mother and bro. Now I know different. In my experience, there is stuff which belongs to the narc (a lot of unhealthy shit) and stuff which belongs to us - it is the stuff that belongs to me personally that I am learning to focus on, i'm all done hating the narcs of my past and feeling crap about what happened to me - now I am discovering strengths and a purpose I didn't know I had before - moving forward in our own lives, and taking responsibility for our own 'stuff' is what recovery is all about. That said, I do think there is a place for a bit of healthy narc bashing, it helps offload the anger and hurt especially in the early days of recovery - a place to vent and be understood is priceless but when all those difficult feelings have been exorcised, the focus eventually has to come around to self - imo :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The deeper that sadness carves into your being, the more joy you can contain." ~ Kahlil Gibran "That which we do not confront in ourselves we meet as fate" ~ Carl Jung http://www.storyofmylife.com/KLARITY4

Articulated beautifully