another visit with the shrink...

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#1 May 11 - 7PM

gettinbetter

another visit with the shrink...

Today we discussed my need to diagnose him. She said gettinbetter you have told me you think hes borderline,narcissistic, and bipolar. Lets break this down into more simplistic terms. He's not a nice person, he isnt good for you and he makes you feel bad. We dont need to diagnosed him who knows what he is. So we talked about why I need to know what he is. She thinks that it is a why for me to stay connected.

She reiterated that problems are anxiety/ocd based and that she definitely thinks i need medication for that. We also discussed all of my other OCD behaviors. She said I dont know if its that you love him so much, I think its more an addiction to the situation and resolving it.

She also believes I have some self esteem issues and we discussed that as well. At the end I ask what do you think about me? She said I think your are a highly intelligent attractive women with some deep anxiety issues and I felt good like air had been put in my tires and as I thought about it that in and of itself would indicate that I have self esteem issues. I have always been hyper focused on the way I look. I said OMG am I a Narc? She said Oh my goodness no. Like I said I think you have OCD/Anxiety.

So that sums it up. I recap these visits just in case some of you who are not in therapy might identify with something I write and it may help you

#2 May 13 - 8AM

gettinbetter

Thanks everyone for your

Thanks everyone for your comments. I have had a tough time of it. I have days where I feel completely in control and other where I feel completely out of control and all over the place but I would really have to say that since the marriage bomb he dropped on me I have been overall better after the initial shock wore off. She ask me gettinbetter are you still having urges to make contact with him? I said yes and she said have you? And I was proud to say nope! I feel comfortable with this therapist as I think she has the right combination of compassion and validation and truth. I'm not always felt comfortable with the truth but out of discomfort comes change. It will be interesting to hear what the real shrink says.

#3 May 12 - 5PM

anonymous

I really appreciate

that you give these updates. They are very helpful. It sounds like you struck gold with your therapist.

#4 May 12 - 2PM

strongerthanever

I saw my shrink today and

I saw my shrink today and here are the results I got: I do EMDR and it has been very helpful. After the EMDR part, I asked her about her overall professional view. Now, she is going on the things I have told her. She didn't see me during the craziness and she is seeing me 2 yrs out of it. So, big difference. During the 5 yrs, 3 yrs with him, 2 yrs in recovery, I've seen 6 therapists. 2 were with the N. One was seen to convince me he didn't cheat even though he admitted to it when he came crawling back 2 weeks prior. Makes no sense. One other we saw after he proposed for the second time and the exN wanted to get me onboard on how to deal with his depression, work out our "communication" issues (me sometimes not being chatty enough for him...not accepting the emotional abuse had anything to do with it) and to get my kid inline to what he thought he should be doing. I told her in my last session that from the ones I've seen and the 1 his old college friend (who he was emotionally abusive to during college years), saw and that counselor said that the exN was the most abusive relationship she was in...not the fact she was sexually abused from her stepdad - why didn't I leave when I knew better! So, i've bulleted the key points. - Emotions and relationships, good and bad, are stored in the limbic section of the brain. - Denial lives there in the limbic section too. - You are not the only woman to stay in a relationship where professionals told you to run! (yes, i had 2 I saw as a 2nd and 3rd opinion during the hovering stage tell me to run) - Because of the emotional abuse, I was convinced that i would not find that feeling I got during the "good moments" of the relationship. During EMDR, a memory came up of how 2 days ago I was working in the yard pulling out the dandelions. He and I had fun doing that. I would be so proud that I got the entire thing and all of the root! He would say, "Good job, Hun!" and later tell me he would watch me in the yard and think how lucky he was, how attractive I was. Whether that is true or not, who knows. - From the limbic region, is denial and when we are convinced we cannot find this charge again with someone else, we go are in denial and ignore the bad. We keep thinking the good is going to overcome the bad. I personally thought the exN depression was the core reason. Get that under control, he'll be happy with me and my son. Then he will see how happy I truly make him. - Even though the exN wanted to fix his depression, I did the work. I did the research. I made the calls to the clinics to get him evaluated for the free drugs. He stopped taking one back in 2008 and restarted back in summer of 2009 when his mother kept nagging and he just started a relationship with the now wife/OW he was interested in while we were still together. I would beg for him to get back on the meds, he wouldn't. The counselor told me that you cant help anyone that doesn't want the help. - She is convinced he is a sociopath and not just an asshole. I asked her this bluntly. Am I wrong in thinking he is a sociopath, Narc or is he just a guy that cheated. She explained that what makes him a sociopath and not just a jerk is that he has no remorse, no empathy or care for who he hurts. how quickly he starts new relationships or transitions from one to another with no long periods in between. from the last time he and I talked to when he started to really date the now wife, it might have been 2 months, or 1 BUT, he was talking to her and interested way before the final D&D. This is his pattern I noticed early on in the relationship. Sometimes it was a day or two after a breakup that he went out on a date or called another woman. She said when they can't self reflect or show emotions or care, they are sociopaths. They do not need to be murderers. When you look back and wonder why you didn't leave when you should have; why you ignored the red flags; why you kept staying to get more breadcrumbs; just know there is more of a scientific/medical reason why. It is in your brain and we have to retrain our brains to get those thoughts rewired. It was the limbic region and that stupid denial!!

#5 May 12 - 8AM

onwithmylife

gettinbetter

I enjoy hearing what you therapist says, one young guy therapist I went to ,the last one I saw, did not even want me to talk about the narc, he said we are here to talk about you and your issues, , he is not in the room and no one can help him, it may be true focusing on the narc keeps us stuck and then we do not have to focus on us, which we need to do.you therapist is good i would say..In the end it does not matter what the narc is or if he even is one, it is that he treated you and all of us horribly with no respect.

#6 May 12 - 7AM

spinning

gettin better, thank you

for logging your therapy sessions. It is helpful to me. I am not in therapy (money issue) and can use all of the insight I can get. I think your therapist is really very good. I am so glad that you found her and that you are sharing. I have learned a lot from you! I think the diagnosis of him part is interesting...as a way to stay connected. I spent so much time doing so I wonder if it is/was true for me. It has taken a huge conscious effort on my part to disregard whatever his problem is, to not google his name and to stay disengaged. He's still in my head, though, so I don't know...I do know I DO NOT WANT TO STAY CONNECTED. So I'm going to continue to try hard to disregard the disordered one's issues and focus on mine. As for self-esteem issues...well, that's nothing new for me. What was already low took a huge beating over the past six years in the chaotic relationship. Whatever. I'm working on that too. Gettin better, thank you again for all you have brought here. Love to you from, (not) spinning (at least not today and it feels great!)

spinning

#7 May 12 - 4PM (Reply to #23)

gettinbetter

Spinning your welcome. Is

Spinning your welcome. Is there anything general you would like for me to ask her? Do you have medical insurance with your job? I was surprised that many cover the cost of a therapist. I have been very very fortunate that my firm has excellent benefits right down to legal services. So everytime I get mad and think I want to quit I think again lol

#8 May 11 - 9PM

Steph

"So we talked about why I

"So we talked about why I need to know what he is. " You were affected by a horrible disease...HIM and HIS disorder. When something affects us....whether it is Cancer, an infection of some sort....or a personality disorder..... We want to know WHAT the hell hit us. It's normal. When you become "sick" from something....you want to know what it was, why you got it, and what to do to prevent it. I don't agree that wanting to diagnose is a way for you to remain "connected".....I think it is a way for you to want to learn everything you can so you can heal and move on. That's normal. OCD/anxiety issues? Definately, we all have had that...either from this situation alone with the N....or it was there earlier and the experience with the N just exacerbated the issue. I hope you don't mind me replying to your post...and I think it is great that you share what you are learning.

#9 May 11 - 9PM (Reply to #6)

ally2375

What the HELL happened?!

It's TOTALLY normal to want to know and understand what type of truck that just hit us and left us for dead! But, I think there also comes a point when we need to accept that we know all we're gonna know. :) At some point, we're still trying to figure the person out even though we KNOW that they're not healthy for us (and perhaps no longer in our lives.) There comes a point when allowing them this much head space becomes an obstacle to moving on. At least, this was my experience. GB, I had a very similar conversation with my therapist not all that long ago. She pointed out that no matter how my sessions started, they always ended the same way: a rousing game of let's diagnose the ex. Thing was, I had no more information to present, so we were just going around in circles. You'd think I was preparing to put him on trial for being a Borderline the way I would lay out my case! What was at first necessary and helpful had become stale and stagnant. SS, you make a good point about how we seek to know what made us "sick" and how we can avoid it in the future. But after awhile, I think we find that understanding by looking inward. At least, I sure hope so! Keep at it GB, because I think you really are making progress. Digging in this deeply to our own hearts is no small task. Thank you for sharing your journey with us.

#10 May 12 - 6AM (Reply to #8)

gettinbetter

yes Ally she said exactly

yes Ally she said exactly that beyond a certain point its counter productive and feeding the OCD. She asked why it was so important for me to have an exact diagnosis and that the point is he is toxic. I told to know exactly what he is does relieve some of my anxiety about it. To know he is this or he is that because deep down inside I am afraid that it was me. Something wrong with me and that he might go off an have a completely normal life with this other woman. I also said aside from that its a fascinating subject and she said yes I agree it is fascinating but you have to be careful that your need feeding the ocd.

#11 May 12 - 11AM (Reply to #21)

michele115 (not verified)

I get what your therapist is saying

And I agree...to a certain extent I don't think any of us will ever be sure of a diagnosis, except for those that have been fortunate enough to be advised somehow or through finding a paper somewhere with the Narc's diagnosis on it. She is exactly right, and its what I try to bring home in terms of making points...in general PD's overlap and abuse is abuse, it doesn't matter WHAT we call them...if they're toxic and we feel abused something is very wrong and we need to get out, disengage, detach, and heal. Again, happy that you found someone you feel meets your needs - that was something that was so very hard for me to do and essentially what held me together was this forum. You're very lucky GB...I happened upon another site that reiterated how difficult it is to find support - which is another reason why I am so happy to be working with Goldie on trying to get face to face and online meetings off the ground. I thank you for sharing with us. Hugs!

#12 May 12 - 7AM (Reply to #9)

ally2375

GB

I can relate to EVERYTHING you just said. If I'm honest, sometimes I STILL have the exact thoughts you mention: something was wrong with me and he's going to go have a normal life with someone else. I don't know where you or I got that message, but it sure does get in there deep, doesn't it? For me, I think I was trying to pinpoint his disorder so I could reassure myself again and again that he really WAS disordered. Because if he's disordered, then it's not me, right? I couldn't have done anything different to make it work? That was my logic, anyway. Keep moving forward! You're doing great!

#13 May 12 - 1PM (Reply to #18)

Caligirl

Ally & eveyone, One day at a time...

Your post hit home for me. I am dealing with the same issues. It's like knowing how disordered my exN was would establish to me it was not my fault. I know that is just the self-blame. Mine blamed and judged me for every feeling and problem that it's residual. He is still in my head. This has been an interesting thread and very helpful. GB, thanks for sharing. I'm not seeing a counselor due to finances and this is helpful. SS and Michele, great posts. I agree on many of your ideas and thoughts. It's only been a little over a month NC for me. I almost ordered two books today on N. I have read a couple books years ago before my exN. I had been engaged to a man who had many N qualities. I wouldn't call him N#1 though (We're still friends. When we met he told me he was broken). I broke up with him initially bc his ex-wife exaggerated some facts to make it appear they slept together. I sought counseling and it was that counselor who believed he may have had NPD or traits. Now I know he has traits and certainly not anything as deep-set as my exN. My ex-fiance has been there to lean on throughout my ordeal. Anyway, that counselr said "Cali, you cannot be with anyone with pathology. You are intelligent, beautiful, and capable of loving in a give and take relationship. You are healthy." I can't remember her exact words here, but something like my mind, my kindness, my sensitivity would leave me vulnerable to someone disordered. Jumping forward a couple years later...I believe that relationship perhaps prepared me in certain ways for this last relationship with exN. So many times I felt something was wrong in my gut. I would think of what this counselor had said, and then dismiss it. Now, reading is my way to understand, to say "yes, he was disordered." He is textbook! I have every sign that he has full-blown NPD, and yet why do I doubt? I have read books on abuse, and yes, he IS an abuser. He told me has ADHD. I see references to NPD and Bipolar. But in the end whether he suffers from ADHD, NPD, Bipolar or is an abuser or all of the above, he is DISORDERED. He is TOXIC. He is SICK. He hurt me, COMPLETELY hurt me. At some point no amount of education on NPD will give me a shortcut to healing my heart, mind and soul. Yet, I find the need to understand who HE is. I can say my "education" on NPD is so I won't make the same mistake again, but that isn't the only reason. He twisted my mind and by seeing who HE is, I can stop the blame and guilt and confusion. Part of it, is therapeutic, as I will never see him or talk to him again, and the more I learn, I can tell myself "yes it was not my fault." Perhaps this is my closure bc I cannot say to him, "See, this is who YOU are and it wasn't my fault. I'm not crazy." It is vindication. It is validation, something he never gave me. I can see GB's therapist's point. There is perhaps a point where obsession is predominant, but perhaps it is just a way of coping, just as in talking to our friends or posting here. Each time we share purges him and the nightmare from our system. Each time we read another's experiences or finish another book our mind is repaired. I think there is just a balance, as in most things in life. Yes, we need to focus on ourselves and not on diagnosing them. Otherwise, we are still giving them energy and, as someone said, space or free-rent in our minds. I know what he did caused me anxiety (getting much better with NC) and devastated my self-esteem. I also know there will come a day when who and what he is or has won't matter, but it isn't today. Healing and coping are different for us all. It will take as long as it takes, so let's be gentle on ourselves and give ourselves time. Time heals all wounds is an old saying, used so much, it has probably become cliche, but it's so true! One day, we will fall asleep without wondering what he's doing or if he found someone new. One day, we will wake up and he WON'T be the first thing on our mind. One day, what will ONLY matter is who and what we are, beautiful and loving people. Until then, one day at a time. Thank you to all of you here. You've helped my healing so much!! Best to all, peace and hugs! -Cali

#14 May 12 - 2PM (Reply to #19)

ally2375

Caligirl

Mine had ADHD as well. I am convinced there is a connection. I agree with you that it takes as long as it takes. My therapist's version of that is, "trust in the process." I always reply - "I do, but I wish the process would hurry the hell up!" For me, my head grasped all of this long ago, but my heart is still grappling with it. Pffft... stupid heart. :) I'm glad you've joined us here. Congratulations on a month NC! One day at a time is right!

#15 May 13 - 2PM (Reply to #20)

Caligirl

Ally

Thank you. That is interesting your ex had ADHD too. I bet there is a connection. Mine said he wanted to get on meds, but he never did. I can relate to the heart stuff. Intellectually, got it! Yeh, stupid heart needs to get with the program, lol. Happy Friday!

#16 May 12 - 8AM (Reply to #10)

gettinbetter

Exactly! I know deep down

Exactly! I know deep down inside that is the root of it. If my self esteem were at a healthy level I wouldn't be questioning myself so much. Its like deep deep down I think it was me who wasn't worthy or good enough though cognitively I know that's not the case. I ask her why can I know this stuff on a cognitive level yet I can't integrate it emotionally her answer was... denial. I'm struggling with acceptance. I have though really become aware though that I truly do have ocd issues. She wants me to make a list of them. I've never really given it much thought but I have been ocd about everything from pick at my heels until they bleed to running up to work at nine o'clock at night to check something and my compulsiveness isn't necessrily on one thing but switches back and forth between things. She wanted to make sure I make a list for the real shrink. When I was leaving I joked and said geez I'm a real wacko. She laughed and said gettin better you are not crazy narcissistic or bi polar you are just anxious as hell and little depressed Oh yeah I also ask her if my anxiety/codependence was rooted in childhood issues. She said many times it is. She said probably some of yours is but some could also be from this trauma with him years ago. Probably a combination of factors

#17 May 12 - 11AM (Reply to #11)

ally2375

"Perhaps you should consider...

"Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you are not a TOTAL mess." My therapist said that to me a couple of months ago. We were talking about some of my issues from childhood and my beliefs about myself. Her statement stopped me in my tracks. You know what's sad? I HADN'T considered that possibility. I was CONVINCED that I had a deep well of issues that all had to be examined and addressed before I could be healthy and recover. I have issues, yes. I have things from childhood that need to be dealt with, yes. But, sometimes I am my own worst enemy by demanding perfection of myself (Come on, Ally! You must look perfect AT ALL TIMES! Strive for excellence! Be the world's best girlfriend! Failure is unacceptable!) She urged me to cut myself some slack. Easier said than done... :) I'm mentioning this because I strongly suspect the same applies to you. I'm not saying the codependency, trauma bond, OCD, whatever aren't real or don't need to be looked at, but look how much you're piling on yourself. I hope I'm not overstepping when I say - GIVE YOURSELF A BREAK, GIRL! You come across as intelligent, caring, and successful. Maybe you could start giving yourself CREDIT for that.

#18 May 12 - 1PM (Reply to #16)

gettinbetter

Yes ally that is exactly it.

Yes ally that is exactly it. In fact she said just that. She thinks all of those things are factors but believes its all rooted in anxiety and control issues those are just manifestations or I guess it could be vice versa ill have to ask about that. Yep ally you got it and she basically said that but there is no doubt that I have ocd. I used to be obseesive about work and check things constantly sometimes I would think I hit things in the road and I would have to turn around and go check. My mom said gettinbetter you have been anxious since you were 3 years old. She also mentioned that I have been anxious so long that I may have forgotten what it feels like to not be anxious. She said the first priority is to get me feeling better and then I will get more out of therapy. She said right now you are all over the place

#19 May 12 - 1PM (Reply to #17)

ally2375

Yep

I hear you on the OCD. I think I have tendencies as well. What I've noticed was that my ODC-ish behavior gets much worse when I'm under extreme stress. I think it's a way for me to feel like I'm in control of a situation when I feel extremely OUT of control. So, I get what you're saying about this being a control issue. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy helped me a lot. When I started to obsess, I would stop moving and envision a big red stop sign in my mind. It was my signal to halt my thought process and shift gears. After awhile, I think the obsessive thoughts wear a groove in our minds and we slip into them without realizing it. CBT helped me to become more conscious about what was running through my mind and seize control in a healthier way.

#20 May 12 - 11AM (Reply to #13)

michele115 (not verified)

Ally - Exactly!

That quest for perfection I think trips a lot of us up...that was certainly my problem - learning to accept crap is gonna happen, it's not always gonna pan out the way I envisioned, I need to roll with it and not feel "responsible" for keeping all the duck in a row all the time.

#21 May 12 - 11AM (Reply to #14)

spinning

ditto, Ally and Michele!

That perfection thing still causes me problems. It is very difficult for me to 'go easy on myself' with everything from my weight to my interactions with others... ...people are constantly telling me I'm too hard on myself. After a lifetime of this I don't know how to be any other way. I am trying, though, to cut a little slack. I'm committed to being healthy and happy. Rock on, girlfriends! Today is a great day! Love, (not) spinning (and it FEELS GREAT!)

spinning

#22 May 12 - 5PM (Reply to #15)

gettinbetter

Yes with the perfection

Yes with the perfection stuff! And I so obsess about my weight an had a bout with bulemia on my younger years and we discussed that too. You see a lot of these things have happened to me at different times in my life and independently I wouldn't say they are indicative of anything but when you look at it all together they all spell anxiety and control issues I kinda think of this analogy the anxiety is the flu. The codpedence, ocd and control issues are the coughing fever and sore throat. Atleast that's the way it seems to me but I'm gonna have to ask her about that I currently work at a job beneath my capabilities. I make good money at it but I could be making a lot more but I simply don't want to take the risk of failing or not being exceptional at it.

#23 May 12 - 11AM (Reply to #12)

wacaet

My therapist said something

My therapist said something very similar to me last week. She said I was "should"ing myself to death. (I should do this, I shouldn't have done that)

#24 May 11 - 11PM (Reply to #7)

michele115 (not verified)

Ally I identified and agree....

You said: "What was at first necessary and helpful had become stale and stagnant." In the early stages of recovery, this incessant going around it is necessary but I don't think going over and over it at stages 4 & 5 is part of that process...That is why I try to encourage people that even if they are NC - until they're done with the obsessing, they're not at the latter stages yet. For me, exactly...at a certain point it gets stale. For me, I began to BORE MYSELF with it. He's still here, so that makes me still in recovery - Here in my head *to clarify* but he has no real influence? I can have a great day or a lousy day but I can't remember either as of late that had anything whatsoever to do with thoughts of him or actions...it's all my crap now...I just live with a squatter in my brain. At a certain point, it gets BORING because NARCS are boring, and once you really own they're insane and have processed how their insanity has affected you - and dealt with the pain and trauma...GRANTED I think 18 months is a FAIR estimate of time we need to give ourselves...I don't see what else there really is to go over...at a certain point, we need to let go, relinquish control or "perceived" control, face the fact that some lousy SOB pulled one over on us and move forward... I liked the way you put it...after a while it does become stale and stagnant... BUT it takes TIME, and doing the work to even be able to make such a statement... It appears you are really doing great and I am happy that gettinbetter also feels she can make significant progress... Hugs!

#25 May 11 - 8PM

michele115 (not verified)

I would say that in this case...

One of the important reasons we need to come to some conclusions about what they are is that in a normal relationship, I think it's only fair to analyze what role we may have played - HOWEVER - in the case of a personality disorder - in this case Narcissism, but even borderlines and others, there is such mind F-king going on that it's damaging to take blame. A Narcs tool or one of the main ONES out of many is MANIPULATION and that is how we end up trapped and doing all kinds of things we normally WOULD NOT DO!!! It is in a sense mind control, gaslighting, NLP, crazymaking behavior. AND all these tactics are what messed our heads up in the first place - so we need to know what we are dealing with so we don't ABSORB BLAME for their insanity. You can't fight back or be rational or make normal decisions when your head's been messed with unaware in such a stealth fashion. THAT is what causes the anxiety and all the other shit that we go through - the physical and mental symptoms we suffer from. By nature of the illness, it is textbook that the victims end up being sucked in and we get caught up in the push pull that is his goal from the get go and unless we knew about this crap before we'd have no way to fight back. Now that we know the signs, the illness, the indicators WE CAN IDENTIFY the flags, before that we knew nothing and were defenseless! They never laid a hand on us in a lot of cases - who would think it was abuse? THAT IS WHY it's almost criminal to think that the APA is considering dismissing this as a diagnosis! If they don't strive to understand it, then how in the hell do they think they would be qualified to treat the VICTIMS??? We're not crazy! This is a sore spot with me - and I hope that enough people can raise awareness and prevent this from happening as I see a great potential of further victim abuse with professionals who are not adequately trained or knowledgeable - it's a sad state of affairs that I found my peers better equipped to understand my "temporary" insanity...and were able to bring me out of the fog to a place of understanding and healing. Hugs!

#26 May 11 - 8PM

gettinbetter

On a funny note I think her

On a funny note I think her comment on my intelligence came from my spitting out all that psyche jargon like nobodys business. She said my goodness I'm surprised at how much you have read about this stuff. Which looped back to the ocd. I compulsively read about this shit. I gonna try to stop.

#27 May 11 - 8PM

wacaet

sounds like you have a good

sounds like you have a good therapist I'm in therapy over my N, too My therapist has me learning about cognitive distortions there's a book, the feeling good handbook, that I'm reading it's helping. I definitely suffer from cognitive distortions!

#28 May 11 - 8PM (Reply to #2)

gettinbetter

Yes I like her a lot

Yes I like her a lot eventhough she has told me some things that I don't want to hear and that make me uncomfortable

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