Cognitive dissonance (not for people in their first steps of recovery!!!!)

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Jan 27 - 7PM (Reply to #19)
michele115 (not verified)
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For me...

I am getting a little or a lot more clearer in what you are saying... For me for example... Facing that I had this great need for approval...and so perhaps in a way was engaged in some form of manipulation myself although perhaps unaware in that perhaps subconsciously alhtough the signs were there, they were ignored because on some level, if you're into I think it's Freud...that we keep replaying our childhoods until we feel we've mastered the issues... So perhaps manipulation....BUT...to another degree, I also believe I loved him...and I also believe that ALL normal people have a touch of psychosis, neurosis, and all other kinds of ailments. including a certain extent of narcissim and this is ALL healthy... SO - when I look at this disordered individual, I can "empathize" with his traumatized soul and how he is disordered as a result of his trauma, etc...and is completely unable to relate on the same level... And for that reason I don't hate him... But to see this "shadow" of myself through him as well so to speak...I can't see that because of the extreme and the magnitude in which such disorder exists... Again, I can see how on the surface, for a normal person, who might be acting vain, or self centered, or bratty whatever...how we "react" negatively and "hate" those things in others we see in ourselves. I used to be a teacher and in studying psychology on a general level, we were taught that sometimes that one kid who just gets on your darn nerves that you secretly just love to hate *and I say that in jest cause kids are kids...BUT the ones who pluck that nerve...usually you are reacting cause they are the embodimient of that bratty inner child within YOU...so I get that. BUT...in dealing with a Pathologically severely disordered individual...that is where I'm having a problem thinking that this kind of work could be used in the instance of a NARC... I am not criticizing or dismissing...HERE is where the HOW comes into play... What kind of thinking would one have to have in order to get to that place in light of all of the stuff I mentioned above? For example...how have you been able to do this knowing what you know about narcissism etc.... Yes, I've argued, it is an illness like any other, they can't help themselves, etc...however, their stuff runs so deep, it is so peverse, that I can't quite say that they are the invert of me, cause yea, we all have dark issues we are complex...but I don't think it runs THAT deep for us... It's not about denial of those things within ourselves that are whatever we want to label them... It's about how perverse, exxagerated, and the degree of dysfunction...that part is not a mirror. We can all be self centered, selfish, we tell lies from time to time...that is human behavior. These characters are exploiters...and yea, we can be too, but not to that degree... Or else, it would seem that to do this would make me a repressed psychopath...no?
Jan 27 - 8PM (Reply to #20)
jen79
jen79's picture

Michelle

Its not about the degree of your narcissism. And the shadow work is about that. The core concept is a spiritual one, the one is all and all is one concept. That everything is within us, and we are in the everything. So this is not about you supressing narcissism, and being different than any other this way. Everyone has a shadow, everyone. If you dont have one, its because you are not standing in the light (like the narc). So its not about realizing that you are as sick as him, and as outragous narcissistic as him, AND its not about labeling you as a inverted narcissist. Its about things that you suppressed thats all. Lets say, you feel now a great deal defensive inside that he might be, the real disturbed sick being he is, that he is your shadow, and you feel that is not true. Thats where you have to look at. And I dont mean to say, you are sick. I say maybe its admitting to yourself that there is some insane aspect within you, that went back for example, cause you missed the drama, just an example. Its not about repressing a label, or a hidden truth about you, its only about traits that you might suppressed, cause you were taught, that they are sick, wrong, not acceptable. Lets say, you now learned that being like them is really bad, and you really dont want to be everything but like him. And thats ok, if you chose to do so. Its not serving you though, if you suppress or deny then parts of you, that could serve you in a certain way if you release them in a healthy way, for example being a little bit crazy and insane, can serve you well, when its about creativity, or taking some risks, and getting new experience, like now, that you broke NC, this might seems insane to you, it maybe it is, but its also couragous that you went back to see how you will respond now with your new strength and wisdom to an old situation and maybe you can now finally move on. Its also, great when you are a little bit selfish, it can protect you from overgiving and people pleasing and setting boundaries, and it can help you to fullfill your own needs through you. If you suppress that, cause you think its wrong, you judge yourself, you feel guilty, and you will then act it out in a subcounscious way, and maybe trying to manipulate outer circumstances by trying to be nice person to get approval from other people, which is not genuine. Thats what its all bout.
Jan 27 - 11PM (Reply to #21)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

On this last post Jen

Yea, I think I got it!....LOL...finally...so here's the question... Now what?...LMBO! and I am lacing serious as cancer with a dash of humor here...
Jan 27 - 11PM (Reply to #22)
jen79
jen79's picture

No what? I have no idea lool

I did the whole process sO I can start to think again of my carrier and finances, which I couldnt think of in any way, cause I was still so full of pain with him. Now what. Its weird now. All the drama has left me, and I start to get familiar again with the normal new jen. I was so used to with victim jen, full of pain jen, that I feel almost like something has died within me lool. So I guess its time to move on.
Jan 27 - 5PM (Reply to #15)
becsta777
becsta777's picture

Michele..

I know what you're saying. Just like the rest of us, I thought I 'knew' my narc, but since he's left I hung out with one of his friends a few times and noticed they had a lot of similar mannerisms and beliefs etc. This man is a lot older than the narc and I think he used him as a mentor of sorts. I wonder if they can just take on so many different layers of persona that their true self gets lost in the end. Its hard to see the good in them when you can only see them as an empty shell - I dont know exactly - I think its time that helps. I was only involved with mine for a short albeit traumatic time, so, a year on I am starting to feel I could possibly forgive him. I'm trying to see the good in him as a human being. That he's still a person with hopes and dreams and feelings, a weak man-child with deep insecurities and unstable self esteem. He's damaged and I know he would hurt me again given the chance. Of course, it always helps to hear news that things aernt going so well for him :) I heard some juicy stuff the other day and it brought a smile to my face and a little feeling of validation too.
Jan 27 - 4PM (Reply to #12)
venuslovedpluto
venuslovedpluto's picture

Briseis...

Right on. I'm with you on all of this. Just for clarity, hope no one thinks I was suggesting that anyone here is less than intelligent for getting sucked into Narcland. I just meant that from my own self-reflection, I spent the dips between the rollercoaster rides beating the hell out of myself because each time it did go badly, I felt monumentally stupid. Foolish. I almost hate him for that, for seeing that and so much pain in me too, not giving a rat's ass. Yeah I think this is later-stage thinking because I can't ponder it anymore. I'm scared it might have me sympathizing with the N a bit and that can't happen. But it does make me happy because I think this whole experience will amount to a lot of serious growth for me. For all of us.
Jan 27 - 4PM (Reply to #13)
jen79
jen79's picture

venuspluto

This is true, its for the end of recovery, when you are ready to accept and forgive. Dont force yourself there, hating him and saying he is evil, serves you very well, its also part of release. So dont go there yet, if it doesnt feel right for you. You will feel it, when it is time, you will just feel relief. If not now, then its too early, and you cannot shorten up the recovery process. Hugs to you.
Jan 27 - 4PM
venuslovedpluto
venuslovedpluto's picture

Oops I read it...

...and maybe I shouldn't have but here's to hoping I can trust myself at this point. After having ridden the rollercoaster from hell about 800 times, I really have zero desire to try that out again. I still think about the pull it had though, which confuses me some because I like to think that I'm an intelligent person, I know I didn't hop back on just because I was hopelessly attatched to the guy and deluding myself about his character. I'd noticed his passive/aggression years ago, and the mean streak that could peek out when he wasn't getting his way. I saw the other side of these things too though and also understood the abuse that likely led to it. These things actually kind of (I know it sounds nuts) balanced with my personality in ways that worked when we weren't butting heads. Which was 90 percent of the time, for the bulk of the "relationship". (I'm not in denial about the fact that he was lying to me about huge chunks of himself and his life though) :( The passive/aggression worked with my temper. He was pretty composed and rarely outwardly offended if I'd snap at him or act like a jerk or a flake. He'd let me know in his roundabout way. I also saw it as boyishly charming, not gonna lie. I liked that he didn't get in my face about things, wasn't aggressive, I saw it as a vulnerability of sorts for some reason. Weird- I know. Even the mean streak wasn't too offensive to me because each time it happened I knew why, could see through it to the vulnerability and adored him for it. This is where I have to be careful though. At times I've wondered if I'm a narcissist too. I had a boyfriend at age 26 that I was crazy about. We bonded, spent a lot of time together, but I resented his mom being somewhat manipulative & a big focal point of his life. Sometimes his friends too. I loved his artistic side but caught myself feeling threatened when he became more involved with his interests- playing guitar a lot & going to art school- I wanted to be his priority. Then he moved to San Diego (I'd known when I'd met him that it was possible) and I was crushed. I missed him so much. I was so jealous of the 2 friends he'd moved out there with, upset about his life without me. It was rough on both of us. After 3 months of my crying, back and forth flying out to visit, always so sad to be back home without him, he eventually moved back so we could be together. So...he's back...it should've been awesome...he even proposed...but then things changed. I'll never be able to explain what happened next, I'm still confused and sad about it. Maybe I lost respect for him for giving up San Diego to move back and into my apartment with me? Maybe I don't love myself so when he proposed I thought there was something wrong with him? I'm not sure but I am pretty sure I D&D'd him. I withdrew, I told him I was unhappy. When he bought a mountainbike rather than pay a credit card bill (debt), I lectured him and I wasn't kind. He was sweet and affectionate, I became cold and distant. One night we had a fight after I'd chatted with another guy for a few minutes at the bar we were at together. When we pulled into the parking lot at home, I tossed my ring out of the car window and left him outside by himself- sobbing, searching the grass for it. I was doing this stuff, allowing myself to, but I can't explain- I was horrified at the same time. It was like I was outside of myself and some other mean, nasty girl had taken over. He left me shortly after and I swear I lost my mind. I tried everything to get him back but he was long gone. For years I thought I'd been testing him. Afraid that he'd leave me maybe, knowing we hadn't been together for long enough for me to feel totally secure about his character, I decided I'd tested the crap out of the poor guy and he'd "failed". That was until I found this site. I knew immediately that my current ex is a Narcissist but secretly feared that I am too. What if? I'm loveable, pretty sure. I'm definitely empathic, so that doesn't fit. I have healthy self-esteem I think, I'm not a girl who thinks I'm special or beautiful or all that. I don't like hurting people in any way, it makes me feel sick inside. That doesn't fit. So what the hell am I? Am I normal? Was that my shadow self and I was testing his limits with that, trying to make sure this man who wanted to marry me would accept all facets of me before I made the vows? Like, on some subconscious level? I'm not sure. I still grieve that loss though, no doubt about that. I loved him SO very much and I know he didn't think so by the time he left. I guess it comes down to what we will and won't, can and can't accept from another person and the communication that should bridge that. I'm an older, somewhat different me now, I don't think I'd behave that way with anyone again. But I have wondered about my exN in this context and what really motivated his behavior, it's all so very complex =(
Jan 27 - 5PM (Reply to #8)
becsta777
becsta777's picture

Venus...

Hey, I've asked myself that question "am I a narcissist myself?" so many times. My therapist says that just asking that question usually means I'm not one. But I think we all have narcissistic tendencies at times. There is a lot of power in narcissism, and it can be an attractive coping mechanism. For example, I've been involved on and off with narcissists for years and I've been hurt really badly. After being with a narcissist, I would often get involved with someone I was able to manipulate and control quite easily. I knew I wouldnt really get hurt and it felt safe to be with them. I think Narcs do this too when they seek out vulnerable people, the threat of being hurt is minimal and the feeling of control and power to be gained is intoxicating. So, essentially...I was being quite narcissistic in my dealings with certain men as well. The difference between me and an NPD affected person however, is that I felt guilt after doing what I did. Insane guilt and anxiety which caused physical illness and ultimately led me to end the relationships. I wanted the power and the control, I wanted the strength and the flimsy boost to my self esteem it provided, but my ability to empathise with my 'victim' always made me cut and run. I felt just awful about causing pain like that and I still feel guilt and sadness when I think about it today. In hindsight, I can see that my repeated dealings with narcs and my own need to manipulate are indicative of low self esteem. These narcs were trying to show me something but it took more than ten years of narc best friends and boyfriends to decipher the message - 'stop running away from yourself, accept the good and bad, the warts and all - get real!' I don't know you well enough to say you have a low self esteem, but it might be worth checking out. I always thought my self esteem was high, but I realise now that I was relying on external factors to boost it. My looks, my job, my friends, my MAN etc. Self esteem is all about how we feel inside, when those external things are taken away we only have ourselves. I found a great book about beating low self esteem with cognitive behavioural therapy. Its really easy to follow and its from the 'teach yourself' range. I'm still angry at the narc, but I'm starting to accept that he is a human being and not an evil monster or alien. He acted like a massive jerk and I dont want to be anywhere near him or his friends ever again, but I can see that I may be able to forgive him in another six months or so. Forgiveness doesnt mean we are excusing their behaviour or inviting them to do it again, I think it just means that we are letting go of the anger and hatred in our hearts and moving on. But it cant be forced...as you said, anger and hatred serve an important purpose in the healing cycle. Everything comes naturally eventually. much love xo
Jan 28 - 10AM (Reply to #9)
venuslovedpluto
venuslovedpluto's picture

Wow, Becsta...

...thank you. This offered me bigtime insight. I got together with (San Diego guy) after a relationship that had left me feeling abandoned and helpless. After 2.5 years together (B) moved to Chicago to be a cop, leaving me behind like -thanks, been fun, see ya- . Ouch. This makes so much sense. Also, at the beginning with (SD guy) I'd been dancing topless at a gentleman's club to pay for college (Gasp! I know, but I freaking loved it) and he hated it, pressured me to quit. Which I resented. So all of this stuff makes sense, I really should've considered the entire picture. I just felt so bad about doing that to him that I zeroed in on myself and the awful thing I'd done, ignoring everything else that played into it. No wonder those relationships failed. I was trying to exist contradicting, denying myself all over the place. And expecting my boyfriends to love me in the ways I needed, where I needed, around this mixed up dynamic. Wow, relationships, people are so, so complicated- how does ANYONE ever keep it together?
Jan 28 - 4PM (Reply to #10)
becsta777
becsta777's picture

Venus...

I agree - relationships are hard work! I think for me especially because I've been in them for all the wrong reasons. Sometimes it feels like a great big tangled ball of string, but I'm slowly getting through the twists and knots and unravelling it all, getting to the heart of it. I have a feeling the final outcome will seem incredibly simple. You know, I imagine a healthy relationship in the future for me would be with someone who compliments my already full and busy lifestyle. Someone who has their own life. A relationship that is built around two people who just like each other's company and are not using each other for something. There's been a lot of codependence discussion with this thread over the last few days and its been extremely enlightening for me. I think low self-esteem and codependence must go hand in hand! It's so nice to know that I'm not alone in my issues, that I don't have some kind of rare, mental/personality disorder. Hey - I used to work in a gentleman's club too! I loved it at first, but a year into it I HATED it. I think I felt particularly bad about the guys who developed feelings for me who I felt I was taking advantage of in the end. I mean, these guys would give me presents and come in to see me and I would take money from them just to talk to me. At first it was kind of cool and I felt really powerful, but after a while I felt really guilty. There were of course a lot of mean guys too, who would come in and think they could say horrible things to you - "your tits aernt big enough" or "I like that brunette over there better" like they were choosing a new dog to purchase. I've always been pretty insecure about my looks, so that affected me quite deeply. Anyway, its all in the past and the future is bright! xo
Jan 27 - 4PM (Reply to #7)
jen79
jen79's picture

venuslovedpluto

The whole purpose on looking on your shadow is getting aware of it, so you can release it in a healthy way that serves you. If you supress it, it will act out at some time in a unhealthy way that will hurt you and others and maybe brings your whole life in danger. I think this is what happened, when you dismissed your ex in this way. See, a shadow is a trait, that is not bad, but that you were TOLD is bad, so you judge it and you supress it, to stay in the social mask you have chosen for yourself. No you are not a narcissist, but everyone has narcissistic traits. When you decided to be an empathic nice person, you might have supressed narcissistic traits that could have served you well, to think about your needs and what you really really want in man and a relationship. Its an inner guidance. But I guess, you ignored it, and maybe another trait of winning him over no matter what, was stronger, when he then moved in, you had won, and then your narcissistic traits that you supressed, meaning your real needs and wants started to act out. There is nothing wrong with you, we all did this at some point. Its just getting aware of all the parts, so you can chose how to respond to certain situations, so they will not take control over you.
Jan 27 - 2PM
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Hey Jen

I'm reading this with interest; however, I am confused maybe you can explain it better or tell me where I can research more? When I'm reading how you express the Narc having a dichotomy of sorts...for example: He is good and bad... No matter how hard I might try...I can't see good. I cant see good because essentially, any of the good I saw was a fascade, a sham and an illusion. He did not own any of those qualities and sought them out and attempted to live them THROUGH me. So, I am a dichotomy...yes I am good and evil...I loved fiercly but when hurt had enough venom to want to rip his head off and crap down his neck...so yes, I have a shadow of good and evil... But NOT at all seeing how on earth one can "visualize" the "dichotomy" or "shadow" of a narc... Please explain...cause I believe that to engage in such an exercise with a normal non-disordered individual that may have hurt you is one thing...I do something that deeply hurts you and act like a jerk...okay, we're all human; however, these pathologically disordered individuals are a whole notha ballgame. At best, maybe one good quality is he breathes?...and even that at this point is open to argument....
Jan 27 - 3PM (Reply to #2)
jen79
jen79's picture

Michelle

I would love too, I can see already in your post, what the issue is, but maybe we do this in a private realm, I will post you on the other side a private message if you dont mind? Its up to you, cause this process is very painfull in the beginning, and it brings up alot of aggression and defensivness in the beginning, and I dont want new members to read any of this, cause it trigger them so bad that they could break down. I am not kidding, thats why I suggest, I write to you in private, if you dont mind. See you on the other board.
Jan 27 - 3PM (Reply to #3)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

I will follow up with you there

Is there a particular time that is good...not sure If my brain can absorb right now...but will hunt you down. IN general though, are you more a daytime poster or night time? Hugs!
Jan 27 - 3PM (Reply to #4)
jen79
jen79's picture

Michelle

more a night time poster, that for you is afternoon I gueess, I see for you its now 3.15 or so for me its now 10.15 pm. I will explain to you in a message.
Jan 27 - 5PM (Reply to #5)
michele115 (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Thanks Jen...

I also posted some more specifics about my confusion on the issue above under a posting called Brieseis...cause she said something that helped me to clarify more where I was confused...I welcome the input...I don't hate so to speak...I believe I am at peace? There is residual, but it's not consuming...