Narc standard m.o.

Of course they know. If they didn't intend to hurt, why lie & cover up what they do? Why deny? Why lie? When your's said: "It jsut kinda came out." he didn't know what he was saying. Translation = "I didn't want this reaction from you. I really don't care what you feel. But, I would not have said that if I had realized that I would have to listen to all this nonsense about YOUR feelings." But, you were still useful for extracting what he wanted so he just didn't say: "F*ck off!" And walk away. He had to pay lip service to your feelings if he was going to continue to extract from you--the price he had to pay. I don't know about your's. Mine was pure evil. In the end, he wanted to destroy me. If he could have gotten away with it, he would have murdered me without a thought afterwards. And, all that calmness on the surface? Mine was very upbeat & easy going before I married him. Only after living with him did I see something else. Mine was a roller coaster type. That's the borderline personality in the Cluster B spectrum (histrionic, borderline, narcissistic, anti-social). There are others here who have been in perfect marriages & then suddenly it's all over & he walks away as if there was no connection, no relationship. I think that if they are "unruffled" & "easy going" -- this means that they are extacting exactly what they want -- everything is under control & going according to the plan. Their plan -- whatever it is they want at that time from you. I think these Ns who can carry this off have little or no of the Borderline personality. This type is the "successful psychopath." They have us so totally fooled into believing that they are a person of substance. What they feel inside? Who knows? What does a housefly see with his eyes which are so different from ours? We cannot imagine. Same with a person who lacks empathy or conscience. We cannot imagine what they truly feel.

Like Scoop says: "They are amazing pretenders and can even fool psychiatrists." They can appear to be calm and collected while at the same time, seething underneath it all. They are oblivious to others and how their behavior affects people close to them. They dismiss the feelings, ideas, and opinions of others. They are condescending in their nature. They belittle, criticize, judge and put others down. They can be blatant about it or quite subtle in their approach. They have a way of putting you down in such a way that you don’t even realize you have been insulted until you reflect upon the conversation later or someone points it out to you. While narcissists do not always realize how hurtful their behavior is, it doesn’t mean at times, they are not deliberately abusive. A Toxic Personality is purposefully abusive when the relationship with their significant other changes in a way that is not to their liking. An example of this would be when a significant other becomes too close or clingy. Intimacy terrifies them, and they will respond by being purposefully abusive in order to push the person away. Another example of when a Toxic Personality would be intentionally abusive is if a significant other voices their displeasure or threatens to leave the relationship. They cannot be alone. They must always have someone present to validate them. By asserting abusive behavior, they believe they can maintain their dominance and control over you. A Toxic Personality has a way of turning everything around so you begin to question yourself. They will do something terribly mean or cruel. You will talk to them about it, and by the end of the conversation, you are the one apologizing for some reason. A Toxic Personality knows how to manipulate better than anyone. A Toxic Personality eventually becomes sarcastic and belittles you constantly. You begin to feel you can do nothing right in their eyes and your presence is hardly tolerable. You’re baffled. You wonder what you did wrong to cause such a drastic change in their feelings toward you. You struggle desperately to return things to the way they were in the beginning. Unfortunately, as hard as you try, things will never be the same again. It is a maddening and precarious way to live. It can drive anyone to the edge of their sanity. When a Toxic Personality feels they are in control of you and are not threatened by any fear that you will ask for too much from them or leave the relationship, they will engage in escapist activity and appear as if they hardly notice you exist the majority of the time. You are merely present to validate them should they not get enough attention from the outside world that day. You are treated with indifference by the person who once showered you with affection. Their “silent treatment” is their way of devaluing you. If you begin to pull away, they will lay on the charm again. A Toxic Personality knows when to engage their false self to ensure you do not leave them. They are always reminding you that they understand you like no one else can or ever will. It is essential that they make you believe only they can understand you. By constantly telling you that you have problems and quirks only they can understand, they believe you will become dependent on them. By telling you they love you despite your flaws, they hope you will begin to feel unlovable in some strange paranoid way. This is their way of ensuring you will never leave them. It is manipulation at its finest and you need to understand they are brainwashing you, but you can deprogram.

I would say that years of acting and trying on diffrent masks they can perfect what ever "act" they wish to present . Mine like youres was "mild mannored janitor" cool as a cucumber , happy go lucky , everyones friend but i KNOW that was all a pile of pants . They can act for years , switch it on and off at will . It is mind bending because it is so believerble , hell it is the act that caught me out and kept me trauma bonded of a long time . Its not till i realised the inconsistancey in his persona did i come to the conclusion he was full of shit . They are amazing pretenders and can even fool psychiatrists

I suspect that there are so many "types" and "grades" of narc that it's difficult to have a sort of checklist that covers each one. Some may have some "properties" and some may have others. I recall right at the start of the relationship that my narc hinted at some form of stalking that he was subjected to (I now believe this was actually him doing the stalking based on more recent behaviour I've heard about), and there was also a distinct sadness along the lines of "Why can't I find a man? Guys don't like me, what am I doing wrong? Why does no-one love me?" I look back on this and I wonder if I was genuinely seeing something deep that he wanted me to see...or was it instead just another lie to twist my perception of him so he could get what he was ultimately after? I'm not sure it's really possible to nail them down to being either/or. I think sometimes they really are calm and ordered, and other times they're complete nutcases. I think sometimes they're aware of it, and sometimes they're not.

Hi VLP, like you I have often wondered about all of this as well. I've read through all the other posts here and agree with pretty much everything said. There does definitely seem like there are no black and white answers to this which is probably why our Cog dis can be so disturbing. Mine also seemed perfectly even keeled except for rare expressions of anger. To me, he seemed self assured, confident and calm. BUT, I have close friends who have told me they often sensed an uneasiness about him and that he seemed tense to them a lot, which I didn't usually see during 'normal' social situations. I am very intuitive to people's moods and the obvious moods in him I would recognize, but I guess I endowed more onto him because of what he told me, which were likely fabrications he used to keep his mask on and play the part. One friend said he never seemed very happy to her and she seldom felt comfortable around him, and another said she could always tell when he was getting too close for comfort during interactions because he'd have trouble making eye contact and his body would start shifting about whenever in a conversation that required a deeper connection. She said she's noticed he'd then find a way to remove himself. These are two of my best girlfriends, who only tried to get closer to him because he was such a big part of my life. They wanted to like him and for the most part did, but both found him difficult to connect with. I agree that it looks like they move on with ease and are happy to experience new adventures like you said "around every corner". But I think in true narc fashion, they HAVE to look like that is how they feel. Their endless need to have supply reflect back to them who they need to be in order to live with themselves must surely be exhausting and I think the futility does reach their consciousness at times. Instead of dealing with it though they can't. They only need more desperately to find a source of supply to make that 'failed' image go away and to affix their mask back on tight so they can believe that is who they are and not face the true despair within their authentic selves. I think all the covert abuse are just tactics they've discovered work for them to remain in control emotionally. I don't think mine intentionally ever really wanted to hurt me and I think feeling bad about seeing how he did hurt (not necessarily ever empathizing, just witnessing me being damaged), created even more frustration in him which fueled the abuse even more in order to gain back some sense of control that HE could make it better. That worked for him for a long time until I just wasn't bouncing back from it anymore and he had no alternative but to seek out new supply and leave. my 2 cents

You are not alone by obsessing about this. Whenever I've brought up his lack of respect and criticisms of me or other people, he acted completely incredulous. It is so hard to know whether they do know they are being hurtful. They simply don't care. They are hollow to the core and just think everyone els is nuts for making a big deal out of their cruelty. They pass it off as just kidding around, you're too sensitive, blah blah... You just can't have a normal relationship with these sorts. The N I knew, seemed to think he was an easy going sort of guy too. Funny, the life of the party most times, but he didn't really know who he was. It takes feelings to really know who you are and the ability to form your own opinion on things. He seemed to always copy others in tastes for cars, music, clothes, etc. I once asked him, Do you even know you are being mean? He said, I guess I'm an asshole. I thought to myself why would anyone want to be that? Is it too much effort for them to be kind to people? I guess it is when you don't have a heart or soul.

As someone who is analytical by nature, I wrestled with many of the same questions. I felt like I couldn’t move on without some sort of understanding. I’ve had to come to accept that I will never COMPLETELY understand his motivations or though-processes – he is disordered and a separate person after all – but I’ve come up with some answers that feel close enough to truth and sense that I can live with them. 1) Mine was also even-keel with only a few exceptional displays of anger or resentment. This confused me a lot in the beginning. After all, if he really WAS a narcissist, wouldn’t he vacillate between rage and adoration? How could he be down the emotional center ALL THE TIME? I think the answer is that he is fundamentally disconnected from his emotions. Does he live in a perpetual state of frustration and unrest? Yes and no. Yes, because he is disappointed over and over again in his romantic relationships. No, because he lacks the emotional connection to really feel the full impact of the pain he causes, even to himself. He knows something isn’t quite right with him or with his approach to relationships. I’m not the first one to go NC with him. But, I believe he abdicates any responsibility for the demise of his relationships – if the woman was the “one,” wouldn’t it just work without him having to expend any effort? So, while he may not live in a constant state of torment, I do believe he lives in a constant state of disappointment and powerlessness. 2) Is the covert abuse conscious? Again, I think the answer is yes AND no. My brother would refer to what he calls “moustache twisting” when I would ask this question. He said that mine was probably not sitting in his attic, twisting his moustache like a cartoon villain plotting to make me an emotional wreck that day. But, he knew full what reaction he was likely to get when he said or did certain things, and you can be sure that the reaction was what he was after. I think these guys thrive on making us twist or swoon. It makes them feel powerful and important. They aren’t necessarily trying to inflict pain, they are trying to give themselves validation. As for the claim that your guy’s offensive comments “just kind of came out,” well that’s pure bullshit. No one is such an unintentionally expert marksman. His words hit the bullseye in your heart every time? It’s deliberate, my friend. Don’t believe the hype. So, those are my conclusions, anyway. At some point, I think you know you are going to have to accept that there’s only so much sense you’re going to be able to make of this guy. It’s an endless circle. What helped me stop going round and round was to write down all the hurtful things mine said and did over the course of the relationship. When I looked at everything on one big list, it no longer mattered whether he was a narcissist, passive aggressive, conflicted or just a good old-fashioned jerk. The stuff he did was unacceptable and I didn’t have to live with it any more. I still miss him sometimes. I still wonder what the relationship could have been if he’d put half as much energy into the relationship as he did into the games. But, I can’t change who he is to suit me. I will never again try to change who I am to suit him. So, we are at an impasse.