Narcissists & Relationships

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#1 May 7 - 8AM
Anonymous (not verified)
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Narcissists & Relationships

Narcisstic personalities tend to have an inflated sense of self, does not respond well to criticism, criticizes others, manipulates, inability to empathize with others, attention seeking.

From the DSM:

The clinical criteria is: A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by 5 (or more) of the following:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
3. requires excessive admiration
4. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
5. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
6. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
7. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
8. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Personality disorders, especially cluster 2, are very difficult to overcome and make the partner of the person who has them pretty miserable.

NOTE: Approx 75% of those with NPD are male. NPDs make up about 2-15% of the clinical population (people actively seeking services from mental health providers) and about 1% of the general population. Although “narcissistic defense mechansims” might be common (having some of the criteria), having true NPD is much less common.

Axis II Cluster 2 personalities tend to abuse the people they are in relationships with. For the life of me I don’t understand why the DSM doesn’t list abuse of others as a criteria for NPDs. I would bet the house that every narcissist abuses almost everyone in their life.

Partners of Narcissists
I tend to disagree with studies I’ve read that healthy, stable people can find themselves in relationships with narcissists or borderlines. Most healthy people would intuitively RUN from relationships with these people. I can see how someone can “seem” to have it altogether but has unfinished business or some other self-doubt that attracts a narcissist or borderline and the doubt grows and grows as a result of the treatment/abuse by the narcissist.

But a common partner of a narcissist is someone who is a perennial victim or martyr. Another common partner of a narcissist is someone who gets their self worth from the narcissist’s self-aggrandizing. In other words the narcissist thinks he or she is something special and the partner wants to be with someone special therefore they will be someone special. (complicated to describe).

However, there are people who are perfectly normal and reasonably happy who get sucked in by narcissists because they really haven’t been exposed to such crazy people and cannot fathom for one New York second that anyone is as crazy as narcissists are. This is more of a naive thing. Not terribly unhealthy but not healthy in the sense of having their people skills honed and ready. A very trusting, docile person can get involved with (and run over by) a narcissist. But even there the involvement reveals things that need to be worked on (naivete, for one). Smarten up, thicken the skin, put on your street smart glasses and refuse to be suckered in by a charmer.

Victims need more rigorous intervention. Therapy, tough love, and a complete withdrawal from the person with a personality disorder. If someone has been sucked into a relationship with a person with a personality disorder, especially cluster 2 personality disorder, my recommended first line of treatment is GET AWAY FROM THEM AND STAY AWAY FROM THEM. Otherwise you’re never going to get well.

As discussed on the comments in another thread, I read the book 'The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists.' I do find it dangerous that she suggests therapy with people who have NPD but she seems to waver throughout the book as to whether she wants to address people with TRUE NPD (evaluated as having an Axis II diagnosis) and people who have “narcissistic defense mechanisms.” I was a clinician and trained in the DSM and had trouble keeping straight what she was talking about.

A true NPD is not only going to be immune to couples therapy but I would bet my house that in 99 percent of the cases they use the therapy against their partner and maybe even against the therapists. I’ve seen therapists manipulated by narcissists more times than I care to recount.

When I worked in Emergency Psychiatric Services our evaluations always commented on the person’s “insight” meaning their ability to understand their own problems. When a person has an Axis II, esp cluster 2, diagnosis, it was fairly usual to see “lacks insight” on their eval. A person who lacks insight cannot change because they don’t know how to change. My experience with NPDs is they don’t want to change.

Borderlines and narcissists, especially narcissists, do not give up their victims easily. They do not respond well to rejection and it is part of the overblown sense of self that causes them to reel someone back in. It has NOTHING TO DO with any “feelings” they have toward their victim because they don’t have any (I don’t care WHAT they say, the feelings are NOT PRESENT.)

NPDs have NO ABILITY TO LOVE and NO ABILITY to EMPHATHIZE and NO ABILITY to be SORRY and NO ABILITY to CARE ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE WRONG TO YOU.

Most narcissists will make you believe it is ALL YOUR FAULT. It is RARELY their fault. The world is wrong -- not them. Most of the time they keep their victim in one place with blame and a constant erosion of any self-worth the victim might muster. Occasionally they will say they 'love you' and they are 'sorry' but ONLY as a last resort.

If they say they are sorry or they love you or they care it is merely part of the game. BELIEVE NONE OF IT. Narcissists are PATHOLOGICAL LIARS and will say whatever they have to in order to keep their victim where they want her (or him but most [around 85 percent] narcissists are men).

Getting out is not easy but it really has to be done if you ever hope to have even a semblence of happiness

As I’ve said in other posts about getting way from your abuser, make sure you have a PLAN and you can stay SAFE. Abusers often kill or severely harm the person trying to leave.

PLEASE TALK TO A DOMESTIC ABUSE SPECIALIST OR CALL THE 800 NUMBERS HERE: 1 800 799 SAFE which is 1 800 799 7233.

Feb 24 - 11AM
narcnarcwhosthere (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

in their talons......

"Borderlines and narcissists, especially narcissists, do not give up their victims easily. They do not respond well to rejection and it is part of the overblown sense of self that causes them to reel someone back in. It has NOTHING TO DO with any “feelings” they have toward their victim because they don’t have any" i got him out of the house november 15, 2007...but i've yet to be rid of him....he hates me..told me daily for years that he wanted to be 'rid of me'... but won't sign divorce papers,to this day......he 'fears' me but refuses to move away, which he could EASILY do...he purposely got a job delivering pizza on a street where i have gone to the grocery, the library, the pharmacy, etc for years....when i was still living in my house..before it was foreclosed on...he moved back into that small town..into the only motel..where i and all my neighbors had to drive right by him to even get a cheeseburger.... however at the same time, he's the king of no contact...he throws himself in my face..then screams that i am stalking him...he plants himself wherever he thinks i might be...then ignores me or claims it is me stalking him..... sick p.o.s....... getting him out of my life is like trying to pull a tick off a dog's butt...he just will not let go....did the same to his first wife....screamed for 7 years that he hated her...she was the cause of all his problems....then when SHE filed for divorce...the drug it out for over a year....just out of spite..... he doesn't try to reel me back in....he just wants to keep me on the hook.......
Feb 23 - 5PM
rache
rache's picture

This says it all!

All the going over it in your mind ,trying, to FIGURE it out just isn't going to get it.This sums all of it up beautifully and drives it home.It is what it is......and,it aint going to change.
Feb 23 - 5PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Narcissists & Relationships

READ TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~ The world is a dangerous place, not only because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. - Albert Einstein Visit My Info. Website for Abuse Victims
Nov 12 - 8PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Narcissists & Relationships

READ TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~~~~ My Abuse Information Site Online Coaching & Help
Jun 22 - 8PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Narcissists & Relationships

see top post ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Free articles & information for abuse victims: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
May 12 - 6AM
fairy wings
fairy wings's picture

sad

Even now, five years on, reading this made me so sad. Reading this post I got taken right back to that time and how hard it felt to cut off. I went back three times and always recorded in my journal within a few days that things were still the same. We went for couples counselling, I went alone he went to a perpetrator programme and every time he still used the laguage of blame. I remember the last time I went back: I struggled to move all my stuff back while he was at work, no one would help me because they all thought I was mad to go back. It was raining which made the whole day more stressful. It got to six, no sign of him, so to stop myself pacing I cooked tea, tidied the flat, cleaned the bathroom etc. I remember thinking you would have thought if he had wanted me to move back so badly he would have made sure the flat was super clean and presentable, instead he had left washing up in the sink. He didn't even make an effort to get home and neither did he text to say he would be home at eight which is when he arrived. I still hadn't eaten believing it was polite to wait for him and wanting to make my return special. When he arrived he'd already eaten. I felt sick in my stomach, like someone had just punched me and suddenly I was back, hooked again! I knew it was a mistake to have come back, but it took me a whole twelve months to go again!
May 8 - 11AM
Fawn
Fawn's picture

NPD Info

This is a great reminder for all of us. My experience with couples therapy was the same all four times we went during our 15-year marriage. The therapist became very frustrated with my husband and two of them (the last two) told me that he was a Narcissist and to get away from him. I didn't heed their advice and had to go through enough pain with him to get to the point where I couldn't stand it anymore. He wasn't able to manipulate the therapists, the judge, or the attorneys. He isn't very smart or conniving, just purely selfish. He has actually been exposed to some pretty cunning and deviant people since he has been in AA, but he doesn't ever completely follow through on their advice. He probably isn't really listening. It is sad when you fully accept that this is a personality disorder and there is no cure. I don't feel sorry for him, but I do feel sorry for our three kids.
Sep 17 - 9AM (Reply to #4)
dolce (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

able to manipulate therapists

Mine was so good at this. My abuse counselor explained to me that our last therapist (we had many) was enamored by him. This woman not only didnt believe my assertions, but went on a long tirade making excuses for his affairs and the other women! I sat there being abused by both my husband and the therapist. I reported her. Therapy doesnt work for these types. I tried all types. NOTHING WORKS! The only thing that brings peace is to get out of the relationship. Cut your losses. Go no contact. And create a life you want.
Sep 18 - 7PM (Reply to #5)
Heart
Heart's picture

Unable to detach

I can relate to your experiences with many therapists. We went that route also. I am thinking about your last sentence...and create a life you want. The life I want is to be a wife again. I don't know if that will happen after two marriages and two divorces to N's. BTW, I am therapy on my own now.
Feb 24 - 11AM (Reply to #7)
rache
rache's picture

i am 53

and,would rather be alone than disrespected/abused/cheated on/lied to.We must first learn to love and respect ourselves,then,we can tell men like this to GO TO HELL at first sign of Socio/psycho/narc traits,instead,of eating-lapping it all up like hungryu little puppys starving for attention.
Sep 18 - 7PM (Reply to #6)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Heart

you need to learn how to be happy alone with YOU before you get into another relationship. http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/womenwhoneedmen.shtml 18 months from now you may be ready but TAKE IT VERY SLOW. Have you read "HOW TO SPOT A DANGEROUS MAN"? also here's a good article on Detaching: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com/2006/08/lessons-about-emotional-detachment.html Personally I will never understand why MARRIAGE is a goal?? It should be the extension of a healthy loving relationship - not a GOAL. Making it a goal demeans women IMHO. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLICK HERE: Articles & information for Narc Victims - Updated Daily "As soon as you feel that crazy sense of walking on eggshells, fending off N-rage, stop. Walk away." - Dr. M. Beck
May 8 - 4PM (Reply to #2)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

exactly!

I used to feel sorry for exNH and even Psycho-Boy. Now I don't. Why? They are adults. They have been told and SHOWN that they have a serious problem. They have seen clearly the results of their actions. YET THEY CONTINUE TO BLAME ME OR EVERYONE ELSE AND DO NOTHING ABOUT IT. NOTHING. So obviously they could care less that they are hurting other people. My pity goes to my kids and the victims and families of other pathologicals. Ns throw enough personal pity parties without my help. As I have gotten older (and wiser) I really have no time for people who feel sorry for themselves and wallow and DO NOTHING ABOUT IT. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Free articles & information for abuse victims: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Cost-Effective Coaching for Victims of Pathologicals http://one2one4victims.webs.com/
Sep 17 - 7AM (Reply to #3)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Relationships & Narcs

SEE TOP POST ~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLICK HERE: Articles & information for Narc Victims - Updated Daily "As soon as you feel that crazy sense of walking on eggshells, fending off N-rage, stop. Walk away." - Dr. M. Beck