Tie Me To A Tree

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#1 Mar 31 - 9PM
better off
better off's picture

Tie Me To A Tree

I don't know WHY it's so bad right now, but I miiiiiisssss him! Sometimes I wish we'd had a hellacious breakup so I wouldn't feel like this. I want to talk to him.

I've posted this, so now I can't, because it would be too embarrassing to have to admit later. But I want to. :-( We were still friends when I walked away, and I miss it so much.

Apr 2 - 9PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

better off & cassiemay

Better off I SOOOO relate to you. Psycho-boy was married though I had known him for 27 years - since we were in college. And I SOOO related to the WWLP quote. I lost count of the times I BEGGED and I mean BEGGED him to 'talk to his wife' and 'get marriage help' or even 'speak to his rabbi'. 100s of times. Yet, he PROFILED me and knew I was being abused by a Narc-Husband emotionally, sexually and financially and played on "fulfilling my needs" and telling me that he should "never have let me go when he met me in the first place." PREDATORS HUNT THE WOUNDED and these guys sniff us out. I finally told psycho-boy's wife, apologized to her, told her it NEVER became physical because I SAID NO and gave her my phone number in case she want to see me & slap my face or needed to know more or if I could help her in any way. Of course psycho-boy just REELED her in, gave her 'selective' information, convinced her I was 'scorned and have been obsessed with him for years', told him I looked HIM up (no he looked me up and I have proof...) and now she helps him in harassing me. She even got some police friends of hers to harass me just after I got out of the hospital from trauma the first time. Last year - 4 years after it all happened - it got so bad I had to take out a Cease & Desist order on the both of them. I still can't believe I did cybersex with him. I had NEVER done it with anyone else before or since and NEVER will. It was like some out of the body experience for me. Really not my thing. He had me CONVINCED it was "the only safe way we could be together" - CONVINCED. All the while he was spending thousands of dollars and hookers and other women... of course he denies all that ever happened though the police & I have definitive proof. cassiemay - I totally get your anger at the other woman. TOTALLY GET IT. But let me say this... ...since you were married to one you KNOW how slick they are. You don't know what he told the other woman, what he's said about you or your marriage. Ns slander & smear like they breathe. Psycho-boy told me he & his wife didn't have sex but a couple times a year, she was cold and hateful to him, didn't like his involvement with his religious community (he knew that was important to me) and he couldn't stand it but didn't want to leave because of the kids (plus she has more money than him! LOL) Psycho-boy told one of the other women that his 'divorce' would 'happen as soon as the kids were both out of the house' and then they could 'be together forever.' I am pretty sure this was all lies - INCLUDING the lies he tells his wife about me. And psycho-boy is quite slick about the massive lies he sells to his wife as well. He tells everyone now I was/ am "trying to break them up" and "he loves his wife and would never ever divorce her" and "can't understand why I am torturing her" (I have been NO CONTACT for years so the only torture is coming from his covert abuse, believe me) I never attacked his wife, even during the emotional affair. In fact I have proof I stuck up for her to him countless times. All the smear about her? was coming from HIM! Here's my story, which I have hard proof of everything I say: http://lisaescott.com/forum/2009/03/16/my-story Here's his version, which he tried to scrub from the web but this is a remaining cache copy (it's all words, no proof. He hopes if he says it often enough it will BECOME true): http://www.jewishblogging.com/blog.php?bid=96316 So cassiemay you don't know what the other woman has been told, what he's used to lure her in and control her. And believe me he will do to her what he did to you.... AGAIN & AGAIN. Even if the other woman is attacking you now - she may be seeking you out in the future. Many of those who did not try to check out his stories, said they should have, and wish they had, as the information they would have gotten may have helped them to make a better choice. There were some women in the survey who were told in great detail about his violent and parasitic behavior. The psychopath had his own convincing explanation about every disturbing description of him. Unfortunately, women don’t believe other women when they tell about abuse from the male partner. A lesson learned is that the other woman may have something to say worth hearing and considering. “How I wish I would have at least tried to contact others. I might not be in the shape I am today trying to recover from what I’ve been through. If anyone ever contacts me, I’ll definitely tell her the truth!” “I thought she was biased! She was and rightfully so. I needed to hear what she had to say…I wish I had.” WOMEN WHO LOVE PSYCHOPATHS Cassiemay - just try to remember - the other woman? is NOT getting any "REAL LOVE" from him. She is getting the same fake B.S. he gave you, women before you and women after her will get. She's lured in, manipulated & controlled too. She just hasn't realized it yet. It's Him that's 110% responsible and IMHO these guys are EVIL INCARNATE. ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Pathologicals only discard the best, the most precious of gems of people... not the worst. They keep fellow abusers, gossips & enabling lackeys close. They despise the principled & honest. Their discarding of you is then their highest commendation!" - A. Valerious
Apr 2 - 10PM (Reply to #21)
cassiemay
cassiemay's picture

yes

thanks for the comments. I understand that he was/is "slick" as a snake and I'm more than sure that "they" had many many conversations about me and what a nut case I was/am. All the more to add excitement to their own affair. I hate it that I added amunition to their cause because I was so hurt, so devastated, so jealous I couldn't seem to help myself. Just made me look even more crazy and despicable. Wrong. But....I do believe it was mostly his fault. After all, he was the one who was married to me. He had choices and made the ones he did. Did she help that along? I'm sure she did. But nevertheless, it was HE who let me down, HE who made the ultimate choices. He could have chosen differently. But didn't. I guess I should actually be thankful since I have come to realize that no matter how much I did, no matter how good, no matter What...it would never be Enough. This was bound to happen with someone else, no matter who she is. And for her sake, I hope she "gets it". But doubt it.... So...thanks everyone. CM
Apr 3 - 5AM (Reply to #22)
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

she will

She will get it. but not until you are out of the picture because now you are getting all the "bad" Here's a good read for you: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com/2007/12/other-woman-now-hes-happy.html I give her about 18 - 24 months.... tops. Once the divorce is done. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ My site: http://abusesanctuary.blogspot.com Free articles & information on surviving & understanding abusive behavior. Updated daily.
Apr 2 - 10AM
Jodie
Jodie's picture

Better off

God knows I know exactly what you are feeling right now babe. It's been over 2 months since I moved out and I haven't seen him since. I miss my home, my old life and him....BUT....there's absolutely positively NO turning back. No looking back. To save your sanity, esteem, God given right to bloom and be happy and achive your goals in life you MUST not contact him. See, what you miss is the "idea" of him, you really don't miss HIM. He was insensitive, selfish, cruel, neglectful, abusive and clueless. He didn't get it. He STILL doesn't get it. He never, ever, ever will. Period. Remind yourself...write down a list of things he said and did to hurt and traumatize you and constantly go back and read it. It's the only thing that keeps me going. When I start idealizing my N I will go back and read that list, then I'll say to myself, "Yup and that is why I left him. He doesn't deserve me. I didn't deserve that treatment. He's the devil."

"Cry now because you lost him or cry later because you have him."

Apr 2 - 8AM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

just....

Just cut it off. You can NOT wean yourself off a pathological. It's hard but it MUST be done. I posted this a couple times before. Sandra Brown, MA's Institute has phone counselors & therapists that are LOW COST and very effective. They are a LOT less than someone in your area who may say they understand but really don't. They are some of the few I know of that 'get it' about pathologicals (Ns and Ps) http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/counseling-ctr/a-path-to-recovery-start-here Here's a recent quote from one of my favorite blogs: http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2009/03/red-flag-hostile-reaction-to-attention.html ...to win requires your total dedication and a total break with the world of your past... Fight for the value of your person... - Ayn Rand You keep saying 'it's difficult' or 'it's hard' but then complain about about him in the next sentence. What's hard & difficult is CONTINUING TO PUT UP WITH IT! I am sorry but I can't excuse someone gutting me but still being in contact by simply saying 'it's hard.' Yes, it's hard. So is life. If you value your life - get out now, immediately. No excuses.
Apr 1 - 5PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

F.O.G.

Pathologicals (Ns and Ps) have a way of wrapping you in FOG: Fear Obligation Guilt ... and it hangs on like a bad smell even when you are out. It does get better - it just takes a LOT longer than a normal relationship to do so.
Mar 31 - 11PM
Barbara (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

journaling is great

Ruby is write. On the message board I think Lisa put a sticky about journaling. For me, after the blow up with psycho-boy I suddenly went from 2 years of talking to this person almost every day to nothing. Complete and utter rejection & silence on his part. And 5 years later - except for the smearing - still nada. It hurts. Bad. So I opened up an online journal that I could lock everyone out of. And I wrote down everything I wanted to say to him. Everything I wished he'd say to me. Everything I wanted and NEEDED. It was horrible and looking back I can really SEE in writing the number this predator did on my mind and soul in just 22 months. And that took me 4 years to get over the worst of it - but I STILL have PTSD and yup, I still want to talk to him but keeping a physical record helped TREMENDOUSLY. I also opened a blog where I stuck all the emails, stuff from the cops, articles I found that helped, smear from him posted online, some legal documents relating to the aftermath - simply to keep the truth out there. But even now when I go look at it - it reminds me of that canyon of lies & control I had to claw my way out of. (if anyone wants to see it let me know...) And that helped a lot too. So every single time you want to talk to him. Journal. Get it out but DO NOT CONTACT HIM.
Mar 31 - 11PM
quietude (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

Better off

Agreed, some days the urge is so overwhelming. I know exactly how ya feel, my ex and I didn't have a big blow-up ending, so it's harder to completely despise him. I miss mine too, even tho I know the part of him I loved was just a false persona. I broke my no-contact once in the last few weeks and I want to slaaaap my hand for it. I know, bad girl. He's been sending emails here and there, invading my space dammit. I know, bad girl again for not just deleting them...(I'll get there). But I felt I had to respond in one case - I caught him in a lie, and I soooo much wanted him to know. Grrr, and I've been so good not responding all of the sweet, sappy, romantic ones...! I sent just one sentence, I was civil and to the point. But I'm sure it rocked him to the core to know that I called him out and let him know I'm on to him! And GOOD, after all the damage he did to me, he deserved a nice little "OH SHIT" moment. So it was satisfying, but.... very sad at the same time, because it just emphasized more the fact that he wasn't what I thought he was. I don't think anything good comes from contact. A bit of satisfaction in my case, but the pain is all still there.
Mar 31 - 10PM
Elena
Elena's picture

What helped me...

Betteroff, Whenever I wanted to contact him really really bad , I would start writing in a journal, and I noticed that after writing the feeling of wanting to call him would diminish and eventually would go away. I think getting my feelings out, relieved some of that anxious feeling to contact him. Or I would call a friend or family member (instead of calling him). And remember, you miss an image, an illusion, not something that is real. Reminding myself that it was an illusion what I was chasing helped me a great deal.
Mar 31 - 10PM
cassiemay
cassiemay's picture

tied to a tree

better off, Hang in there and be strong. Good for you for being afraid! Don't cave. I know so much how you feel. We've all been there for so long, on and off and on and off. God knows I've had my battles with this feeling. One of the things I"ve found helpful for myself is to remind myself of ALL the horrible and hurtful and cruel things he had done to me. When you say you were still "friends" what does that mean? I can't imagine being friends with someone who had hurt you so much. I remember when I found out about my N's betrayals and he said "I wish you the best and just want to be friends...." The first thing out of my mouth, without thinking twice, was "You are NOT my friend." You have to decide for yourself what your bottom line is in terms of hurt, rejection, betrayel. But, I have also found it so helpful to review the comments posted here and the links to other sites (thanks Barbara) to help me keep it all in perspective. And I think, for myself, when it gets out of perspective in my Own mind, I need to reach out and look for others and other information. We will support you whatever happens. and I am sending you hugs. CM
Apr 1 - 9AM (Reply to #2)
better off
better off's picture

I didn't contact him. No, we

I didn't contact him. No, we were still friends. Look, it wasn't a normal situation in the first place. We're both married. I knew by the time he broke off the romantic relationship that he wasn't really going to leave his wife. So anyway, what we "had" couldn't go anywhere. The whole thing never had a way out of it from the beginning. Good reason not to have an affair. Anyway...he didn't "reject" me or turn on me, he posed it as we couldn't keep doing what we were doing, but he didn't want me out of his life either. And I didn't want to be out of HIS life, so I accepted it. But I was still in love with him of course. I realized then, that making it all real was not going to happen and not what he wanted. And it was insanely complicated anyway, different cities, and soon to be different countries. So. We stayed friends in an internet community and from time to time we drifted closer with email and IM and stuff...and then distance...and back and forth some. My H got diagnosed with cancer, and it was a very difficult time for me at home and I still leaned on him quite a bit, and he was there for me. So, yeah, we really were friends in my view. My home life is incredibly stressful. So, it was onesided...I would go to him. But he didn't turn me away if I needed him. As far as demeanor sometimes he was warm and sometimes aloof. Anyway, we had some closeness right before he moved, but once he was gone and busy with his new life, etc, he started blowing me off. He had to come back to America for a month and was being nice to me and I knew then I had to cut it off, because I can't resist him. I figured we'd be close again and then he'd go back and forget about me and I'd be crushed all over again. And it seemed he was really and truly going to stick with his wife and make a real relationship with her, and I don't want to be "the other woman." No. And I needed clarity to deal with my H. And I needed space to get over this guy. Turns out he was messing about with someone else anyway. Of course I can't prove that, it's my intuition (based on some facts I do know), which is generally spot on. I think I've finally been going through the Anger stage of grief. I was never apart from him long enough to get past the denial. I know if I start talking to him I will be back at square one. And I'm tired of going in a circle, when I want to go straight. It will never ever be what I wanted it to be. I feel like I'm 21 trying to come to grips with that reality. I am now. I'll be okay.
Apr 1 - 4PM (Reply to #4)
better off
better off's picture

I also want to say that I

I also want to say that I also was drawn to live in a fantasy instead of in my real life. We had that in common. I have a tendency to want to avoid the painful and uncomfortable parts of my life and I loved being in that relationship that seemed to make it all better at the time. Even now, I'd rather spend time obsessing about the "why" of it all and what makes him tick than to finish my taxes or handle some very pressing obligations that have piled up while I live in my head. I have to face up to that part of me that made it so easy to happen. I guess the thing is eventually I didn't want to play let's pretend anymore, and I wanted the real thing. And that was never an option. In some ways I was the crazy one, because I grew to believe in the fairy tale, when I was supposed to be "pretending" to believe it. ;-) The REALLY sad part is there is a part of me that wants to say DO OVER, and go back to pretending like we were "supposed" to do, because that's when it went south, when I caught on to that fact. The longer I stay away though, the more I realize that I deserve more than a pretend relationship. It's just hard because I am in the midst of a very tough situation and it would be nice to have the faux comfort of that sometimes. But the only way out is through...not from running. I feel like I've been scurrying around in a maze...and my N ended up being another dead end. Al Anon is helping me trace a path out I think, but it's still scary.
Apr 2 - 10AM (Reply to #6)
quietude (not verified)
Anonymous's picture

better off

Seems like we are in such a similar 'place' in our healing process. I'm not going back for sure, but I'm still doing a lot internal questioning about why things are the way they are. I am just the kind of person who likes to wrap everything in up, put a pretty big bow on it and have everything make sense. Funny enough, I can't stand drama! It's such a crappy feeling to be 'stuck' here. Obsessing I think is just a normal reaction to what they put us through. Especially when it's a recent event. Afterall, they had a way of getting into our very fabric, invading what feels like every corner of our thoughts and minds. I think the term 'deprogramming' is so true of what we must do to finally rid ourselves of them. Completely letting go is easier said than done. That's why I don't share this with anyone I know, I really don't want to hear any cliches or questions about why I stayed...etc. At times, I just have to force myself not to go down a certain path of thinking, for example..I've been wondering what had been going on behind the scenes that I was unaware of. These things can drive you nuts, so I feel it's best not to even start those thoughts. I'm trying to refocus on myself, starting some therapy, staying distracted as much as possible, and getting support from others in similar situations.
Apr 2 - 1PM (Reply to #8)
cassiemay
cassiemay's picture

better off

Wise words, sweetheart. "these things can drive you nuts". Think about something else. It goes nowhere but down form the obsessing. I'm a bit prejudiced here because I feel I have been the victim of both a narcissist and another woman in an affair with him. I do not mean to offend any of you, but I must honestly put out here for those who may be contemplating doing this with a married man or continuing to do it with a married man: Please....Be aware of what you are entering is dangerous territory for YOU. He is likely to use you, string you along, tell you lies about his wife or partner, make up stories that fit so that you find him attractive and compelling. Secondly, please have some compassion for how you would feel if You Were The Wife. I have been betrayed and I have to say, though I hate my STBX the most, I also hate the other woman. For having the lack of compassion, the neediness, the lack of insight into what "he" says that can ruin a marriage. I'm not pure, though because of my own experience would never get involved knowingly with a married man. The woman who did with my husband has 50 percent responsiblllity in my mind for our marriage ending. I can Never forgive her, for she knew what she was doing and denied it. There IS no denying it in my mind. If someone is married they have made a commitment and no one should enter in and interfere with that, no matter what "they" say. I am pretty confident that if this woman had not been there we might have been able to work things through. Ok, not sure with a narcissict it would have been wise! But....I guess I'm just saying, please don't put yourselves in that position. It hurts YOU. It hurts families. It ruins marriages that might have otherwise had a chance. You are worth more than that for yourself. You deserve someone who is available. And wives deserve a chance with their husbands. Hope I didn';t offend. CM
Apr 2 - 1PM (Reply to #9)
better off
better off's picture

I'm not offended at all.

I'm not offended at all. Believe me, the last thing I ever thought I would do, EVER, was be involved in an affair. I'm not proud of it. Yes, he did paint himself as the victim of his wife. And initially I never thought I'd ever meet him or anything of course. It seemed "safe" just to talk about our problems with each other. And I've independently confirmed that what he told me is true...she has had multiple affairs and the last one cost her her job. So, I didn't feel much compassion for her. I do now, as I believed his stories of being the faithful one, but I suppose he wasn't long before he met me. Then he had all his "reasons" for why he hadn't actually left the house yet...reasons that kept changing. Who knows what's true about that. I'd stopped believing him, but I was so very emotionally dependent on him by then. Even when we broke up he was still claiming he was separating from her, but he didn't want to be the cause of breaking up MY marriage. Maybe he didn't want to be. Not enough to not pursue me relentlessly though. To this day he claims he doesn't see his future with her long term. Anyway, I can't fathom why they stay together. I guess they're saving two other people. But it's none of my business. When I cut it off with him, I told him I was still in love with him and I didn't think it was right to still be around even as a friend when he WAS clearly making his future with her. That's sometimes the only thing that stops me from just saying hi even. I shouldn't be talking to him. But love him still...yes I do.
Apr 2 - 4PM (Reply to #12)
cassiemay
cassiemay's picture

better off

Dear better off, I'm feeling a bit guilty for sounding judgemental. I know that we all have reasons for whatever we have done. If I am not too intrusive....(and let me know if I am) Tell me you hate me It sounds as if you are very unhappy in your marriage and thus were vulnerable to this guy or anyone else who offered you what you are needing in your marriage. I'm so sorry. I've been there too and could have easily made the same decision. Perhaps I am behind in terms of "posts" from you, since there are so many threads; but I would just hope that perhaps you could focus on what is going on now in your marriage and what needs to happen for YOU to make it ok. Is it counseling or more counseling? Individual or conjoint? Anything you might think would help you to get clearer regarding what you want and need in the future? These are hard questions, at least for myself. And of course everyone's situation is different in so many degrees, so it's not possible to just paint a picture without what You need to know and understand. I just think that if you were tempted by this whole ordeal that there is something else you perhaps need to think of in terms of the relationship you have now. And perhaps, again, I am Missing pieces because of all the Posts! Thank you for saying you were not offended and to anyone else, I hope not as well. My own story, of course, is part of this, so of course I am a bit hurt and betrayed. I Think I understand how this can happen to someone, just want to say...Look within if you find it happening and what it may mean about what You need and why you're not getting it and what else to do. Love, CM
Apr 2 - 4PM (Reply to #13)
better off
better off's picture

Don't be sorry. The truth

Don't be sorry. The truth is the truth. Being able to hear it is what makes us different from them, right? I know this is confusing because I have threads about my N (my "lover") and my husband. Short version, my husband is an alcoholic emotional abuser. He absolutely refuses to go to counseling. MY counselor thinks he is probably bipolar. My situation did have me vulnerable to an affair, but believe it or not, I am normally quite skeptical and careful..and moral (ugh). My N really got to me though, and I did resist at first...more than one time. But he got to me anyway...and I fell very deeply in love with him. He did show me how much I was being abused and gave me a lot of courage to stand up to it. But then he "left" me. We remained friends and he did still help me. But it was an emotionally difficult time. And he helped me find my way to Al Anon, and that has really changed my life and gave me the power to stop depending on him. It's stupid in the telling..I mean there is absolutely no future with this person, not even as an affair. It's impossible in every way. So I don't even know why I'm talking about it anymore. I suppose if things weren't as painful for me at home I'd think of him less. I don't know. I'd love to find out!!! lol When I'm down I'd still like to have his encouragement, which he may or may not give me depending on his mood. As opposed to my husband who will never give me any encouragement no matter what his mood is. My N made me think I was special, I was the one, we found each other against all odds to get through what we were going through. Now it seems...that wasn't the case. So that sucks. I wasn't Miss Right, I was Miss Right Now.
Apr 2 - 2PM (Reply to #10)
better off
better off's picture

moral principles

This is an excerpt from Women Who Love Psychopaths about morals...this isn't to excuse myself. But it does explain things well. "Just what do we mean by her moral principles? Moral principles are a person's sense of right and wrong. The women in our survey had high moral principles and an internal moral compass of right and wrong. Their moral sense and its relationship to a psychopath are quite interesting. Although many of them tested very high in the morality department, they ended up with the immoral and unprincipled psychopath. We have to question how their moral principles were compromised in this relationship. Psychopaths interestingly enough seem to WANT women who are highly moral for two reasons: The first is, he likes the image and status of himself with a moral person. She makes him look moral by his affiliation with her. Secondly, if she is highly moral she will continue to adhere to her principles despite his behavior. She is not likely to do unto him as he will do unto her. For instance, although he cheats, she would be less likely to cheat on him.[despite the fact that this was an affair, I was totally committed to him, it even felt like I was being unfaithful when I spent time with my own husband] In the relationship with the psychopath, she was likely to become mortified at the immoral behaviors he engaged in. Her ability to project and his ability to pretend allow him the stage to mimic her moral principles in his life. Ironically, many of the women's stories end with the loss of their moral principles in the relationship. This could be through sexual deviance he asked her to participate in, or asking that she lie, steal, cheat or in some other way violate her own moral code. By the end of the relationship, she was likely to become mortified at his immoral behavior and how it took her down a negative path she never intended on."
Apr 2 - 2PM (Reply to #11)
better off
better off's picture

I also think it was a bit of

I also think it was a bit of coup for him...he knew I was violating my deepest held beliefs to be with him, and risking everything for it. In a way...I was choosing him over God. In fact, that's exactly what it was.
Apr 2 - 12PM (Reply to #7)
better off
better off's picture

This song is very

This song is very bittersweet...but it really sums up how I feel about it all. Which would be bittersweet I guess. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FAD3GmlB1c
Apr 1 - 9PM (Reply to #5)
Elena
Elena's picture

Better off

Betteroff, My recommendation would be - speaking to a counselor. They really do help untangle the knots in our minds and hearts. I have been seeing one for the last 4 months, and it has helped me tremendously. I now feel I am on the right path. I think that whenever we are not in a position (mentally and emotionally) to make healthy decisions and generate healthy thoughts that lead to these decisions and to the following of a better path, that's when we need someone else's help, someone healthier than us, that can take us where we have not been. Someone more knowledgeable that understands how our mind works and can help us walk into a better place in our life. I think sometimes our unmet needs can influence us into self-destructive choices, and that's dangerous. More than ever, we need to be in self-protect mode, and pressing forward to complete healing and wholeness. A counselor can help us learn how to self-construct and not self-destruct. Does that make sense?
Apr 1 - 1PM (Reply to #3)
Lisa E. Scott
Lisa E. Scott's picture

Betteroff

Good, I'm so glad you didn't talk to him. The whole purpose of this website is for people to come here and "get it out" instead of contacting their narc. He will bring you nothing, but pain. I know you know that. Stay strong.