Everybdy...
"He also said since I was such a great and psotive person who did well in school and had good jobs, eh HAD to marry me so he could be better. So, I was struck by how we heard similar things."
Yep..They want something from us..In my opinion they look to us or anyone for something( i've seen with my N with his coworkers)..they are parasites,either financially,emotionally,or trait-wise..they want our traits or something of us because they lack it so much..They will attach and suck it out of us like vampires..then when we get a hold of what they are doing..They run for the hills or panic because we figured them out!..
My junior year, I remember one of my classmates told me (I occasionally hear from him) that I wasn't "good prey" in regards to the ex-Psych professor. It was a year after the D&D, when I found out that he had impregnated (then married) his girlfriend, another friend said that I wasn't weak enough to marry him, nor was I desperate enough to do so. (I still felt terrible for the OW, considering his negative attitudes towards pregnancy&children)
I think Ns/Ps, being bullies, fear their victims because they know, perversely, that the mind-games they once played might one day be played on them.
The ex-Psych professor honestly didn't know how to react when I was calmly, clinically explaining his behaviors to him, how he wanted to see me upset&angry, how he was happy when he saw me weep. It's like I had yanked down his pants&posted it on YouTube as a viral video.
I knew how he'd avoid me whenever I was happy, being myself, or making fun of him. It worked when he was in the flesh. I've done this same trio of things whenever I've broken NC on occasion. Making fun of him would literally drive him out of the room.
Bullies HATE it when the same tactics are used on them.
The ex-P liked it 15 years ago when I was excited about his lecture&praising it. He liked the admiration&attention. Then when I broke NC back in '09, he had given a lecture, I acted as if it hadn't happened. No congratulations on being published. No recognition for getting tenure.
I guess I'm like those movie characters who get cut down within an inch of their life, then come back an hour later quite alive&well. Like Uma Thurmann in "Kill Bill."
shortway isn't The pic on Lisa Book perfect.;everything about that pic scre ms N
Lisa I love ya for that book..You really know your stuff
"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess
Another point I thought of while out bothering the animals . . .
I know for me that I did not consciously "resist" my Narc, at least for those first couple of years.
I truly submitted to him. Sometimes unwillingly and out of exhaustion (he was relentless), and other times because I consciously chose to ignore myself and believe him.
We conceded, and sometimes even begged for their attention and affection, turned ourselves inside out to please them.
I wonder if this is true for most, if not all of us?
It's not like we didn't TRY HARD to be what they seemed to want! At least for a while.
They reject us because they can't conquer us. You had too much vitality and inner strength and resilience.
You were stronger than him.
And he knew it.
Briseis-you seem to read my mind. You are amazing. This is also a nugget of truth. This is how i felt, and what I did for my N, also. Crazy, how we all have this common ground, yet when we are in the dark about NPD, we feel so alone and that our stories are isolated cases.
Is that it seems a majority of men are intimidated by a strong woman...
They claim they want a strong woman...
Then eventually grow to resent her for her strength.
Something has got to give...
But it has been difficult to find a man that I feel is really on equal footing with me...
But more than that, deep down, I crave a man that is genuinely stronger than me...
I dunno...
I've decided to fall in love with me until further notice...
Any man that is intimidated by a strong woman is not a man worth having. No matter how many of them there are.
I'm not sure if it's true, what you say, that most men are intimidated. But if it is true, pppfffffffftttt on them Mama's Boys. PFFT on them all, I'd rather be alone than pretend I like to diaper some overgrown toddler. Cuz I can't pretend that sh*t :D
I love this:
"I've decided to fall in love with me until further notice."
This is great! Me too, Michele! I'm gonna love me up!
You couldn't be more right about men being intimidated by strong women. Something does have to give! Until then, I'm saving all my love for me. :)
and didn't even realize it until 2 months post-discard.
It still makes me sick to my stomach to remember that.
I tried really hard to please him.
It was only in the very beginning when I still had my mojo & was my feisty self.
Briseis, I also realized a few days ago that my submitting to him also kind of led him on, in a weird way. On some unconscious level I knew he wasn't the right person for me, but I hung on, 'making' myself love him. It did eventually 'work,' but I then totally lost perspective on his controlling & abusive nature. And I think deep down he knew I had hesitation...I didn't fall madly in love with him from the get-go like he did with me. And I think he always resented it. I think it was my careful, drawn-out hesitation over 3.5 months that really ate at him, and made him angry & insecure.
In the breakup call, he alluded to this dynamic, and said, "We're like two ships passing in the night." In the beginning he said he 'loved' me (which I doubt), and over 4/5 months, I then had feelings for him...but he implied I took too long to catch up to him.
I have to tell you, I still wonder...in a non-narc relationship...am I supposed to automatically fall in love with someone, right from the beginning?
If I were to have a new, non-narc relationship, would it be odd for me to take 3 or 4 months before I fell in love with a guy? If he falls for me 1st but I need time to develop trust in him & to feel safe...will he 'fall out of love' with me because I 'take too long?' Because he can't wait?
: /
This question has been gnawing at me for weeks...
Thanks for pondering this.
Hugs,
Leah
f I were to have a new, non-narc relationship, would it be odd for me to take 3 or 4 months before I fell in love with a guy? If he falls for me 1st but I need time to develop trust in him & to feel safe...will he 'fall out of love' with me because I 'take too long?' Because he can't wait?
Hell no :D
It is normal and HEALTHY to allow a feeling of love to develop over a few weeks or months!
It is a classic maneuver of a predator to insist upon INSTANT love, INSTANT trust. I remember getting a huge sob story from the Narc because he said I didn't trust him (three weeks into the dating relationship) and it hurt Poor Him so much.
He didn't want "trust" or even "love". He wanted SUBMISSION and SURRENDER.
I suspect any man who demands you fall instantly "in love" with him is wanting submission and surrender, not love.
Nope Leah, you pissed him off and made him uncomfortable because you were NORMAL. And I believe in my bones that you were dumped because you were too strong, too resilient and he wasn't able to get your full capitulation.
You can have issues out the ying-yang and still be too healthy for the Narc. We can be neurotic as the day is long and STILL be too healthy. Personality disorders are devastating, not just little goofy surface quirks.
Briseis, you know when I'm healing when I LOL reading your reply
I think I'm getting better.
; )
Thank you so much for those words.
This particular dynamic was still sitting in my 'worry' space...in my head. Like I wasn't loving enough or didn't demonstrate my affection soon enough & strong enough.
*deep sigh*
It's really starting to sink in for me.
The CD is slowly fading.
He really is a walking vampire, totally unconscious.
Totally oblivious to the hell he wreaks.
And despite all my hangups, history & issues, I'm awake.
My mother couldn't subdue me...I keep plugging along.
When he was a kid, he somehow decided to 'di'e on some level, and become this empty shell of a human being.
I really think that's the difference between a lot of us, and them,
I had a f*kd up childhood, but something in me...some resilience...helped me stay alive with an injured, but able-to-heal personality.
As a kid, PDIs don't make it. They have f*kd up childhoods, and don't fully develop a piece of their soul.
In a spiritual sense, it's like there but for the grace of God go I.
I don't think these PDIs knew as a young child that they were making that choice.
Just like I didn't know I was choosing to fight the demons of my abuse.
It's really sad, isn't it?
Recently I thought about that, and I felt sad for PDIs.
In some instant in childhood, we chose to struggle. In that same instant, some part of them died forever.
*deep sigh*
Wow, it's really, really sad.
This is why they don't know they're predators. It's that deep inside. The injury is so hidden, they can't see it.
Briseis, thanks again for amazing insight that's so reassuring and healing.
Hugs,
Leah
Where do I go to collect your Nobel Prize for the best explanation of Narcissism I have Ever "Herd," excuse the pun??????!!! that is postively brilliant and i think you hit the nail on the head, ouch.......I remember as long as I "obeyed "the Narc everything was fine, as long as he could get away with the anger, rage, insults, putdowns, silent treatment, and I took it all in dociley, things were OK, but the moment I sent the fateful letter back in 2009, after he moved away and I politely,mind you raised the issue about why this relationship is all about HIS wants, needs, what about ME, the whole bottom fell out after 15 years, no, he did not want me to visit him, no, he did not want to help pay for my plane fare, a few weeks earlier he was begging me to fly there. Sent me a birthday card, after my birthday and ONLY because he had already bought one, that was it. The moment we become people, NOT OBJECTS, is the moment we are dismissed.I will never look at a water buffalo the same way again!!!!I did twist myself into a pretzel to please him for so many years..
Us being "people" is too much for them to bear. They see any expression of independent personhood (a privilege only for them) as a threat.
Sam Vaknin wrote an article about how to conduct yourself if you choose to stay with your narcissist.
You will be required to deny your self: your hopes, your dreams, your fears, your aspirations, your sexual needs, your emotional needs, and sometimes your material needs. You will be asked to deny reality and ignore it. It is very disorientating. Most victims feel that they are going crazy or that they are guilty of something obscure, opaque, and ominous. It is Kafkaesque: an endless, on-going trial without clear laws, known procedures, and identified judges. It is nightmarish.
Here's a link to a website with a long article I'll quote some of: http://www.suite101.com/pages/article_old.cfm/verbal_emotional_abuse/102151
1. I want to Stay with Him
FIVE DON'T DO'S - How to Avoid the Wrath of the Narcissist
Never disagree with the narcissist or contradict him;
Never offer him any intimacy;
Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him (for instance: by his professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his success with women and so on);
Never remind him of life out there and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity;
Do not make any comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image, omnipotence, judgment, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record, or even omnipresence.
Um . . . no wonder they D&D us :D
We should be proud.
when I was trying to get over Narc, I bought Sam's book and read it and reread it and underlined it, but somehow all the words could not quite sink in at the time, strange i guess it takes a while to really sink in, it is like studying a foreign language,LOL
talk about too much work.........
It's too much work to avoid their wrath!!!!!!
If you're anything less than a sycophant--you're going to get in trouble with them. (as I've discovered)
One of my previous narcs hooked up with a very mild-mannered, soft-spoken girl (read-mousy) after he and I split up.
I instinctually knew--after meeting her-- that he liked because she was so quiet and shy. And easily controlled--unlike me.
Last I heard, they're still married--I only hope he's being good to her, she seemed very sweet.
That was an excellent opening post, BTW, Briseis.Great analogy.
what I think my N thought I was going to be. But I think he wasn't paying attention to who I ahd become. I was someone who had tonz of friends, involved in volunteer work, loved music, concerts, going out, coordinative events, just not the shy kid I was in high school. I was also shy in high school not because I was shy, but because of my abusive father who didn't allow me to have friends or socialize. So, it was a false face that a lot of them are surprised wasn't me. The cycle of abuse has kept me from my real self for too many years, and I'll be damend if another person tries to take my identity away from me! Like it or leave it, this is me!!! =)
M
"do you believe that dreams come true? hold on to your dreams." - Madonna
I agree with you.
Narcs target the sweetest and gentlest type of person. The sort that they sense are very accommodating, and not quick to judge.
In other words, their opposites.
In the mind of a Narc, their complete inferior.
That's why they have a hard time answering your question "what do you love about me?" They have to come up with something vague or overgeneralized on the spot because the real answer to your question would offend you deeply.
Thank you for this post. It is strengthening and puts things in the proper perspective.
It does not get any truer than this. He did try to take me down, but it didn't work. I'm no weakling and refuse to succumb to madness.
Thank you Bris.
Sincerely (trying hard to stop) spinning
i agree totally..I asked my N in the beginning what he liked about me..It was that i was giving and helped people(raised money for earthquake victims)..that "I made him a better person"....I have never had anyone tell me that..I thought it was awfully strange..What did he already know he was a bad person and I made him better..So yes,he couldn't take me down,or my qualities..He is off to younger,more vulnerable prey..In fact..you would die if you saw this one picture of them IT IS THE EXACT same picture as the picture on here of the girl kissing up to the man and the man gettting all smiling..In his picture you can tell he is just soooo happy to having his arse kissed.Just like in Lisa Scott's picture of the guy.He clearly is not kissing her back..just focues on the feelings he is recieving..So glad I'm outta there!
...that "I made him a better person." It's all part of the manipulation to get us to keep helping them and caring for them. I think deep down they know there is something desperately wrong with themselves.
In fact, he once told me he had the emotional maturity of an 8 year old. I thought he was just trying to gain my pity when he said that. Turns out it was true.
one time I asked my N what did he really like about me (because the sexual talk was getting to the point where I was starting to wonder) and he said my thoughtfulness and my smarts. Not bad things, but hardly specific either for someone you say you want to marry and wake up to every day for the rest of your life. He also said since I was such a great and psotive person who did well in school and had good jobs, eh HAD to marry me so he could be better. So, I was struck by how we heard similar things.
This article does make total sense! Even though I was definitely a weakling, grief from death of a loved one, depression, a disease, living with controlling father, I mean I was the weakest water buffalo there was! But it was that one phone call where he got mad I cut him off which I wasn't meaning to and said I was sorry but then he said if I did it again, hwould hang up cuz he would be pissed off, and istead of apologizing profusely, I fraked out from growing up with my abusive father and all my life I said I will never marry ANYONE who is abusive to me, and that moment on the phone I told him I think we should cool it down. I didn't mean break up but I heard the tone in his voice, totally cool and monotone, and I guess what you are saying here is what started the seed for him to dump me. He realized I wouldn't take tha buse! Wow! I never saw it like this! My mom would truly be proud. She went through too much to see me get hurt that way.
M
"do you believe that dreams come true? hold on to your dreams." - Madonna
I think this is totally spot on. He was testing me a lot of the time. At first, when he did say weird things to me, if I acted weird in response, he would beg for me to forgive him, then cut himself down immensely, saying thi sis why he's alone,and no one will ever love him. Or saying he was going to leave work he was so upsset now. Of course I would reassure him, as I thought he was truly depressed and upset.
One time he had given a barrage of sexual texts some very vulgar,a nd even said "you must love me to let me talk to you like this." I thought that too was an odd thing to say, but now that makes sense. He was seeing what I would allow him to say, what could he get away with, and therefore, how "weak" I was. Oh my, sine I have never epxerienced this type of thinking, it is completely new to me. And would explain the dumping as like I said, I was starting to be more of a pain and too much work for him to keep up his control of me.
wow,wow,wow.
M
"do you believe that dreams come true? hold on to your dreams." - Madonna
I hope you copy that post on the new board as well. Its so worth it. And all you said is so true!
I will keep that picture in my mind, of being a stubborn water buffallo.
One of the most empowering and *accurate* explanations I have come across on the topic of Narcs and their partners. We are not victims, we are survivors. My ex-N is a monster but he did not leave me damaged and afraid -- just very sad for a month and bewildered by his sickness.
Everybdy... "He also said
When the predator becomes the prey
shortway isn't The pic on
"In the fiery pit lays a man with two faces.One is the face of a God and the other a face of the Devil.Beware He lurks your souls.Keep one hand on your heart and the other hand over your eyes. Let him walk pass you not into you.Ghost of love will possess
Another point I thought of
Briseis-you seem to read my
What is most discouraging however...
Any man that is intimidated
Michele!
Briseis, I submitted the whole 6 months
f I were to have a new,
Briseis, you know when I'm healing when I LOL reading your reply
BRISEIS for you!!!
Us being "people" is too
Briseis
wow
This is...
"do you believe that dreams come true? hold on to your dreams." - Madonna
I agree with you. Narcs
Excellent!
Right on...
spinning
i agree totally..I asked my
Shortway..I heard the same thing
narcissizednomore
yes!
"do you believe that dreams come true? hold on to your dreams." - Madonna
more and more..
"do you believe that dreams come true? hold on to your dreams." - Madonna
Briseis thats fantastic!!!
LOL Jen,
Empowering!