Low self-esteem, or . . . ?

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#1 Oct 21 - 5PM

Briseis

Low self-esteem, or . . . ?

I know I had it. But did the low self esteem have anything to do with why I fell for the Narc?

I'm trying to pinpoint a specific TIME in the beginning of the relationship when a person's self esteem level may or may not have been crucial.

The low self esteem that naturally happens as the relationship deepens is not what I'm talking about here.

And I'm wondering if pre-existing low self esteem (for whatever reason) is even "crucial" for the development of a bond with a Narc. I think a discussion on this would be important. Not so that everyone will end up in a Kumbaya moment LOL but I see obvious truth in what seem (to me) to be conflicting ideas. I'm wondering what other folks think :)

In my mind and heart, there is no "judgment" I have about having psychological flaws, mine or anyone elses. I don't personally feel "put down" by labels, but I recognize that other people feel differently.

Having "issues" does not diminish a person's value, or capabilities, it's not a sentence. It is merely recognition of something that is off kilter or not producing the results you would like.

In my very personal opinion, I think all human beings suffer a form of low self esteem, and that would essentially make it "normal" to be a little unsure of yourself, for instance. I believe it comes from expectations of society and culture, with which we never quite measure up. Being bombarded with what we should look like, what we should care about, what should be important has it's effect on you, even if you reject it outright.

We are social creatures, our need for acceptance and approval in the "herd" is based upon survival needs. It can't get much more basic than that.

When our "fitness" for belonging is questionable, even if we are beloved and our parents were Ward and June Cleaver, we still have the greater culture to "answer to".

I suspect that creates an insidious kind of low self esteem that is operating below awareness. This is only MY personal opinion. And this insidious low self esteem, which feels just like every day normal life (my butt is too big, my tooth is crooked, I should XXXXX more/less/better than I do) exerts an EFFECT, and creates a vulnerability to exploitation.

In this idea, ALL people alive (unless they are transcended Masters or maybe Narc relationship veterans :D ) are vulnerable to Narcs, through no fault of their own, because of years of negative messages we barely even notice because they are so ubiquitous.

It follows that it is necessary to examine yourself if you have gotten hooked in by a Narc. If you want to avoid it happening again!

No matter where you start out -- believing it was your low self esteem, or simply falling victim to a predator -- the end result of what we must do is the same. Expanding self awareness, questioning deeply held beliefs about ourselves, and then rebuilding stronger than ever.

What is it that we rebuild that (hopefully) prevents further victimization?

Self esteem. Self value.

This is a logic issue, to me. The result of recovery equals what was missing before the recovery was needed.

That's where I get "low self esteem" as a baseline vulnerability to predators.

What you y'all think?

#2 Oct 23 - 5PM

Susan32

Responsibility for our healing

An apt analogy when it comes to Ns/Ps are hit-and-run drivers. Hit-and-run drivers flee the scene, they may or may not see the damage they cause, and they speed off. While we're not responsible for causing the accident, it IS up to us to finding healing. It's something we CAN do. Ns/Ps can have us feeling very disempowered, very discouraged. After the D&D,we're in a state of paralysis, anger. NC distances us from the craziness. NC is the necessary intervention. The drama is very addictive. During the D&D, I remember the ex-P asking me, very puzzled, "Why do you LIKE me?" I listed a bunch of positive qualities... he said I was projecting them onto him because I lacked self-esteem. Very bizarre. Yeah, quoting a self-help site for N's victims... by a total N. At the time, I was like, "Huh?" I thought "he wanted the praise,it was all a game to him." I'd rather see I was projecting good qualities onto him from a site like this than out of an N's mouth! Yes, we were victims. We're all in different stages of healing. It's a process. Healing doesn't happen overnight. But the empowering thing is that we can take responsibility for our HEALING. It's something we CAN do.

#3 Oct 23 - 6PM (Reply to #56)

MsVulcan500

Awesome!

This is an awesome post!! Thanks, Susan!

#4 Oct 22 - 1PM

Briseis

Thank you everyone

who participated in this thread!! Turned out to be a monster thread. I've read through everything and like I hoped, got a ton of food for thought. From my personal POV, it seems so clear that I was "more vulnerable" and so it follows I "ass-u-me" that this vulnerability is key in getting hooked by a Narc. It is key. But not complete. Anyone is vulnerable. Robert Hare PhD works with psychopaths and studies them, and he admits openly to STILL being fooled by them. You'd think he of all people would be onto their tricks and fly right over them. (here's a good website with his work http://www.hare.org/ ) My conclusion is that pre-existing low SELF emphasis (thank you NancyM for the semantic clarification) makes a person especially vulnerable to Narcs and psychopaths. But just being a regular old human being does too. The conclusion I take from this -- the plan of action for me and others who've been victimized -- is to examine how we responded initially to the Narc. Discern where in our behavior, thoughts, attitudes a door was opened. Learn learn learn about ourselves, about human nature. And use that education to bar that darn door :D What saddens me is that it seems the only folks who WANT to bar the door are the ones who've been invaded. And everyone needs to have this "skill" because everyone is vulnerable. But unless you've been victimized, the dilemma doesn't really exist (thus our friends and family in their blissful ignorance who "don't get it"). I don't see any value in us reaching a consensus on this, like some kind of Vain Forum Official Position lol :D . Except to agree anyone is vulnerable, even if only for a short time. And we all approach Ground Zero from different circumstances. And we all, no matter WHERE we start from, end up in the exact same place with Narcs and Psychopaths. With much less confidence, self esteem, and griddled brains than we started out with :(

#5 Oct 27 - 12AM (Reply to #51)

almostlydia

Briseis

Yes! this is exactly what I have been trying to say because I know it is not a 'low self esteem' matter across the board but a matter of human vulnerability. That is not to say, that low self esteem does not play a role for some but not across the board. Not to make the general accusation. I am interested in this subject because I am particularly insulted by it and I do not think that I am the exception. I know I am an amazingly strong woman in every way. I have no doubt about it, as God has certainly made me realize this by so many challenges I have had to face. This is a confidence that does not give to low self esteem in any way, for more than a minute. However, being vulnerable is another thing - it is a human thing. It is the same thing that made that PHD vulnerable despite all his training. This is all I have been saying. This, and the fact that I am so highly insulted by the accusation of being a victim because of low self esteem. I do appreciate that it seems you are seeing what I've been trying to say about this now. And I appreciate it because I do appreciate that some of the people here do suffer from this and it should be addressed, by all means, in order to find a secure and healthy place in life. But it is not to say that we all do and it is the reason we were victimized by the N's. I hope we can agree on this. almostlydia

almostlydia

#6 Oct 27 - 1AM (Reply to #52)

Briseis

Almostlydia

Thanks for your response. And having this issue get discussed and challenged makes me have more questions than ever. Remember the math exercises in the fourth or fifth grade about "finding the common denominator"? Whatever that common denominator is, is what I'd like to know. Applying the term "low self esteem" to myself does not insult me, and I don't know if it is because it means something different to me than it means to you(s). When NancyM said "low Self emphasis", that's more what I mean when I think of myself as having had low self esteem. I was not ugly or chubby, or failing in any outer way when I met the Narc. I'd also had my fair share of major obstacles that I managed to triumph over and keep on going. Inside, it was more like I didn't have a clear concept of my "self" as important, or even as existing. That's in comparison to how I see my "self" as existing now. As a real person. I can't explain that well at all in words. Anyway, that lack of self-emphasis caused me to de-emphasize my importance. What better segue for a narc invasion. That I didn't LIKE myself very much (conventional low self-esteem) was probably neither here nor there. At least that's how it's beginning to look to me. It had it's effect, in that it assisted the Narc to undermine me more quickly and efficiently, perhaps. How it works in others who identify themselves as having the conventional "low self esteem" I do not know, that is their revelation. Here's a contrast: A narc is likely to avoid another narc. Like two positive magnet poles will reject each other. A victim of a narc will present a compliment to the NPD, be a kind of "opposite". A person with a fully emphasized sense of Self will rub a Narc the wrong way. A person who is deeply empathic, accomodating, more reticent than pushy, not real judgmental perhaps, may not NATURALLY develop a strong self emphasis. Too easy to focus on another person, it feels too good to please another, it feels like pleasing yourself. Still, though, there is a deficit that a Narc will see and seek to exploit. Just like Narcs have a natural OVER emphasis on their self, a likely victim will have a natural UNDER emphasis. Not due to any abuse or "low self esteem" or some mental health issue. Just as a naturally occuring human trait. SOMETHING in us makes us look tasty to a Narc. They are predators and predators seek certain kinds of prey. The EASY kind. This is the nature of all predators in the animal kingdom, unless they are starving, they go after the easiest things to catch, whatever won't give them too much of a hassle when they try to eat them. Predators go after the weak and the young and the sick in a herd. And to a Narc, the "weak, young and sick" are the softer, kinder, gentler and least likely to do a Michelle on them :D AS well as the folks truly suffering a poor self image. The Narc wants to get in there and get what they want with as little bullshit as possible. Then again . . . I did have that certain experience with my exNarc, where he bored into my eyes and literally STUNNED me. I can't explain that one away. He DID something to me that I cannot explain. I can totally see that happening again, if I were to ever meet such a creature again, God forbid. I would know what to do with it, now, but back then, I just thought it meant "a special something" happened between us even though it felt extremely uncomfortable. In helping each other out, it's good to put unhelpful "absolutes" to rest in our own heads. It detracts from the OBVIOUS, that no matter how we got here, we got here . . . and now what?

#7 Oct 27 - 2AM (Reply to #53)

michele115 (not verified)

I read an article tonight

Which stated that it isn't so much an issue of self esteem vs. poor boundaries. I can digest the lack of poor boundaries but then there's that little character on my shoulder asking: Well what would cause you to have poor boundaries? Fear? and if hypothetically I am fearful to assert myself in the form of establishing boundaries, then could it be that the root lies in those two bad words one starting with an S the other with an E? Just thinking for me.

#8 Oct 27 - 2AM (Reply to #54)

Briseis

Boundaries

The issue of boundaries is something that the more I understand about them, the bigger the whole idea gets. I had definite fears of both having and enforcing my personal boundaries. I also had complete ignorance that there were boundaries to be had, compared to what I experience about myself now. I see two different ways that poor boundaries can "happen". One way, by being fearful of punishment if you assert yourself. The second way, by not realizing you even HAVE a boundary, or a right to enforce it. Very mild mannered, empathic and accomodating people may not have an awareness that it is rude and intrusive to be showered with flattery. Their guts function just fine (feel a little skeevey) but they automatically see the other person's POV first, by their own natural temperament. And they get walked all over like the person who is terrified of asserting themselves against unwanted attention. So I completely agree that fear of assertion AND ignorance due to personality traits, themselves very normal and good, contribute to "poor boundaries" and therefore extra vulnerability to predators.

#9 Oct 22 - 8PM (Reply to #50)

Susan32

What we can learn from the experience...

I agree that this isn't about blaming the victim, but about finding healing and making better decisions. Ns/Ps want control over EVERYTHING, but we do have choices we can make. -We can learn from the experience -We can learn about ourselves -We can find a way to healing -Learn how to discern red flags This is very empowering.

#10 Oct 22 - 9AM

betty2020

If i might interject on this

If i might interject on this one issue of low self esteem..... Many here did not enter these relationships with low self esteem or baggage from the past. Many are highly educated individuals, have great careers and wonderful familys. Any one can fall victim to a Narcissist. ANYONE. In the beginning of your relationship it is very difficult if not possible to recognize the "red flags". Why would you be looking for a problem when there is no sign of one? Unless you are a trained professional or you have been through a relationship with a Narc you would not know this. The self esteem or lack there of comes into play after you have been in the relationship and the brainwashing, gaslighting, verbal and emotional abuse and D&D takes place. This is the result or the end product of a person with Narcissistic Victim Syndrome. We did not ask for it nor did we do anything to deserve it but all of the symptoms we face with being in this abusive relationship are real. We leave confused, in pain and lack of self-esteem and self worth. Our world was turned upside down overnight and many of the issues were never even brought to the table for discussion in attempts to resolve the problems in our relationships. We dont ever get closure and nothing makes any true sense of the breakup. When your in a one sided relationship, with someone who refuses to validate your own existence, it creates a problem with your self esteem. Some cases of low self esteem are more extreme than others. Depending on the severity and length of exposure to the narcissist. It is a case by case basis. The bottom line is that we can see that no one is safe from being victimized and abused by a narcissist. The end product of this abuse does create damage to our psyche and yes our self-esteem is part of that. But in no way did we fall prey to this victimization because we had low self esteem, prior history of mental illness or come from a history of abuse. Some may have this background but not all and this is what makes these people so very toxic and dangerous for us to be around. only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

only one way to go...Forward (tm?)

#11 Oct 22 - 2PM (Reply to #48)

ShaynasMommy

I agree with Betty here

I definitely was not looking for any red flags, but by the time I saw them I was so enmeshed with confusion and in love with the illusion that it was too late. Nobody brings this about or chooses this for themselves (my god why would they) but its what you do with the truth that matters. And, since none of us are perfect, we do what we can to process the truth and get out. In my personal opinion, there is something in everyone, no matter how healthy you are, that the Narc can exploit. They are very good at digging up our ghosts and finding the holes in our armour. I didn't think I was unhealthy, and I still don't think I was, but there were vunerablilities, even if small by comparison to other's "self esteem issues,"that he took advantage of. I grew up in a middle class stable home where my parents were (and still are) married. But, my personality was such that I did not make many frieds so easily and dating was right out of the window for me in Highschool. Long story short, I didn't have that many dates although there was nothing undatable about me. I guess I was just shy. But I felt lonely because of it, and by the time I reached college, I was not that "experienced" in a sense and the Narc really took me for a fool because of it. Once I began to realize what was going on, I was reluctant to quit him for fear of being alone again. Also, looking back, my own father came from a deeply dysfunctional family himself, where his father was emotionally abusive and distant. Although my dad held it together and rejected that kind of behavior, he still was a little aloof towards me, and maybe I had always been in mourning for the fact that I was missing that needed connection between a father and a daughter. It was the complete opposite of being a "daddy's girl." So, dysfunctuion trickeled down to me one way or the other. Nobody seems to realize these things until they are forced to peel back more layers and take a good look. Its sucks to say, but I believe that is one reason why we encounter these fucktard N's to begin with. To realize the stuff we are made of and come out stronger and wiser. That, and our fate is tied in with many others lives, and perhaps the encounter with the N is part of that, idk. just a thought.

#12 Oct 22 - 4AM

hooklineandsinker

I don't have low self-esteem

I don't have low self-esteem as a person - in fact I sometimes worry that I'm more like a narc, in that I think I'm pretty good and if there's something wrong it's more likely to be with whoever is currently wrecking my head (as regards men - women are easier to deal with I think, because they will talk things out). But I do have a MASSIVE complex about still being single and childless at my age, and watching marrige and family happen for absolutely everyone I know. I feel like a freak and an alien and a second class citizen. Why has no man in all my 42 years proposed to me? Why is no man asking me to be the father of his children? every single relationship I've had in the past ten years has ended in shit, despite my having been told over the years that I'm a great gf, I'm great fun , great company, very affectionate, etc etc. This is a source of huge frustration, rage, bewilderment, misery and loneliness to me. I am now utterly convinced there is a curse on me in this area of my life. So if anything rendered me vulnerable to a narc's advances, it's that, rather than me thinking there's anything particularly wrong with me as a PERSON, if you get the distinction.

#13 Oct 22 - 5AM (Reply to #42)

michele115 (not verified)

Hookline

You missed a very passionate debate. Not going to try to bring you to the other side wherever that may be - I've lost track BUT I want to ask you this because the argument on some level seems to be semantics. In your opinion when someone talks about "self esteem" what comes to your mind? Not defining it by low self esteem or high self esteem, but self esteem in and of itself, what does that mean to you when you hear that term?

#14 Oct 22 - 8AM (Reply to #43)

hooklineandsinker

I guess it means thinking

I guess it means thinking you are fundamentally not good enough, unloveable, defective, it's your job to please other people and not yourself, thinking you're unattractive, stupid, incompetent, etc etc. I don't think any of those things about myself but situationally I feel like a second class citizen because I'm still alone.

#15 Oct 22 - 8AM (Reply to #44)

michele115 (not verified)

Hookline

That would be low self esteem but self esteem in and of itself in my opinion is a state and I think that no one is ever in a "perfect" state of self esteem, we waiver back and forth up and down and its a constant work in progress depending upon circumstances in our lives. That's my take, I'm not looking to debate it, but wanted to ask someone who wasn't in the middle of the whole thread off the bat what they thought. "self esteem" has never been perfectly defined - there's no manual a checklist and then again, who's creating the list? AND who's to judge...LOL But I thank you for answering. AND...re: feeling like a second class citizen don't - look around at all the people that have someone and are "settling" in time, the right situation will surface but in the downtime it is an opportunity to tweak ourselves so we can attract better and will be more aware and hopefully avoid another fiasco. For me, I don't think I'll ever fall prey again, I've learned too much.

#16 Oct 23 - 11AM (Reply to #45)

Nothanx

just started reading this thread

I wanted to comment before I read on. I totally agree with Michele115 on this topic. Self esteem fluctuates throughout life! It does not mean that if you are having difficulties at a certain time in your life that you have low self esteem on the whole! EVERY human has insecurities and therefor we all have areas of low self esteem! To deny this is denying a chance to improve in those areas that we are lacking self esteem. With that said, I don't think you need to be at a low point in your life or self esteem to fall victim to a narc! The narc is a master at detecting vulnerabilities (which, as humans, we all have)and can bring down even the most secure/self confident person.

#17 Oct 23 - 11AM (Reply to #46)

MsVulcan500

Very good point

Our self esteem does fluctuate throughout our lives, and we can be more or less vulnerable at any given time. We all also have different esteem issues. And I agree that the narcs have a way of zoning in on these vulnerabilities and exploiting them to the Nth degree. Pun intended. :)

#18 Oct 21 - 11PM

blueeyes

Michelle, Listen

I think in the beginning we all have reasons for love, weather it's our own or not. Here is a fav of mine. I play the piano and belt this with all I have and it makes me ralize. I was so dumb. This song used to have bad meaning for me when I was giving and being ignored. Now, I feel like belting it without the dumb feelings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19V-GhZlDGU

#19 Oct 21 - 11PM (Reply to #36)

michele115 (not verified)

Blueeyes

That was a beautiful song...the music is so soothing...BUT, no sad melodies okay?...I want you to bang this out on the piano and I want you brainwashed by it ASAP! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

#20 Oct 22 - 12AM (Reply to #37)

blueeyes

Ok...Humor for you MIchelle.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder: What Makes a Narcissist Tick /Narcissism/original by coomadoug http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCeIAqeWq3Q

#21 Oct 22 - 12AM (Reply to #38)

michele115 (not verified)

Much Better Blueeyes....

And the dead rat fur toupee was the icing on the cake!

#22 Oct 22 - 12AM (Reply to #39)

blueeyes

Hilarious....Now this I will paly..

You will like this one. You most likely already do..All of us should: It's sorta a Fuck you song..My H always texts in all CAPS. ALL THE TIME so...I like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR7-AUmiNcA&ob=av2e

#23 Oct 22 - 1AM (Reply to #40)

michele115 (not verified)

Thank you Blue...

I enjoyed this...and I can't help but envision the narc albeit overgrown, sitting in a high chair all six feet of him wearing a tin foil crown.

#24 Oct 21 - 9PM

jen79

the more I read here

I come the conclusion: It is the lack of balance and focus on ourselves, what is good for us, what is good for my well being. It seems, we all thought, we can fix them, we think thats wonderful compassioned from us, and yes it is. But the focus was always on them. Not on us. Maybe we think it is selfish to think about us first. But I think we need to, lets start to take back the focus on us. Is he a good men for me? No. Is he great catch for me? No. Did he treat me well? No. And why on earth, we should not deserve that? Why not. I know alot of jerk women, who got great husbands, so why on earth not us. Seriously, if I ever see again a men crossing my way, and he says I have depression, I was a alcoholic, I am just confused, and struggled, but I am crazy over you, jesus I will run like my hair is on fire. Hugs.

#25 Oct 21 - 10PM (Reply to #34)

michele115 (not verified)

Jen

Seriously, if I ever see again a men crossing my way, and he says I have depression, I was a alcoholic, I am just confused, and struggled, but I am crazy over you, jesus I will run like my hair is on fire. You're good...I'd just shoot them right there, save both of us some misery - call it a gift for mankind...

#26 Oct 21 - 9PM (Reply to #26)

gettinbetter

I dont know maybe I just

I dont know maybe I just dont get it. If your an Empath that is your true nature to think of others first, but If you take the ME ME ME approach isnt that what a Narc does? I gotta believe there is a happy medium somewhere.

#27 Oct 21 - 9PM (Reply to #27)

jen79

This doesnt mean you are selfish sick of it

Ask yourself, what would Jesus do, what would buddha do, what would mother theresa do? Do you think, they would have stayed to fix them, someone who doesnt want to be fixed at all. Are you spiritual sick of it? I learned alot through this, and I learned one thing, allow people to be who they are. Help those, who ask for help. And no they didnt ask for help, they pretended they need help. And stay strong, balanced, and openheated at the same time. Do you think it is compassioned and wise, to stay with someone who abuses you? Is it wise to support an alcoholic with his addiction? Sometimes the most empathic and compassioned thing you can do, is leave, to show them the consequences of their behaviour. And be brutally honesst here. Did you try to fix them, just so he becomes healthy? Or did you do it, cause you thought, if you showed him the light, it will bound the two of you together. Sometimes we want to help, to maniputlate and to controll. Real help, and real compassion, is selfless, their should be absolute no self interest in it. And you must allow others to walk their own path, to learn their lessons, everyone has its own journey. speaking to myself and to everyone here too, this is not just you sick of it. Hugs!

#28 Oct 21 - 9PM (Reply to #28)

gettinbetter

Oh yes

there was an element for me of wanting to conquer and fix him so that we could go on and live our happy life together but also it was out of love for him. I really loved him. He seemed to be very compassionate, and have a good heart at times. Also at times it seemed he did really love me but I know it he didnt. He only "believed" he did. He didnt feel it. The believing he did makes sense in that when I would tell him he didnt love me he would get so frustrated and mad. I would say how many times do I have to tell you and you never believe me. In his mind he believed it. He thinks thats all it takes you say and it is so. Of course he thinks that he has never felt love he's only seen and heard it.

#29 Oct 21 - 10PM (Reply to #29)

jen79

I know you loved him sick of it

And there was nothing wrong with that. It is the thing about us, that we think we can change them, or fix them, what is not healthy in this way. You can fix some things in a relationship, little things. But what made us think, we need to be in a relationship with someone, who doesnt share the core values every relationship should have. Trust, respect, honesty, and love and passion, yes. I couldnt even fix the "normal" guys. Let people be, who they are, this is real love, I think, not trying to change them. It is not even fair, you are with them, you say you love them for WHO they are, and at the same time, you want to fix them, which says, BUT please be different, so we can love each other and be happy with each other. This doesnt even work with normal people, and of course it doesnt work with them.

#30 Oct 21 - 10PM (Reply to #30)

gettinbetter

Yes I agree with you. I just

Yes I agree with you. I just wish he wanst sick. It makes me cry to think he may die alone. I cant even get mad at him. How can I get mad at a person who is mentally and emotionally handicapped. Who doesnt even have the ability to grasp that there is something wrong with him. I also cant wear his "issues" and call them my own.

#31 Oct 21 - 11PM (Reply to #31)

michele115 (not verified)

Sick of it let me help you

It makes me cry to think he may die alone. The hell with him! Worry and cry about you possibly dying alone. Heal and get better emotionally - the NARCS are lost causes...they can't be fixed and they are MANIPULATORS which means he still has had a profound effect in getting your sympathy even when in physical and emotional absentia.

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