thats not who I am. Hate is not a part of my heart. I joke around and say I hate him but its not in my heart. Nope I am not naive. I am a well educated woman that has a career in a male dominated profession. I know what went down here. I just refuse to own it. I also refuse to put hate in my heart for him. Who are you hating? a man who has no capability to have empathy or feel compassion or love. I dont believe they choose this for themselves. With that said. I dont have to subject myself to him but first I must detox myself from the high he gave. I have had no other dysfunctional relationship other than the one with him. I am going to continue to be the same loving person that I always have been. Im not interested in changing that part of myself. I have educated my self on this issue and maybe everyone thinks Im a weirdo and maybe I dont belong here but its really hard for me to watch people in pain being told it was some shortcoming on their part that caused this.
Im all for people wanting to look within but I dont think telling people its their low self esteem is in anyway helpful in fact to me its dangerous. That kind of talk with some of these people who are in such a fragile state is downright dangerous in my opinion. I fear that it may push someone who is at rock bottom over the edge. We already know that it pushed one person on here away. A person that has really really been struggling.
I may get pounced on and thats fine but Im for people telling themselves "Yeah I am attractive,successful,loving emapthetic person. Im not for people telling themselves that they have "issues" that caused this. Maybe they do but maybe they dont.
For me Im seeing some dangerous information being disseminated here.
empathy... I am sorry but some N's are fathers of our children and former lovers and spouses. Having empathy for them even if they have none is part of keeping ourselves whole and human. Maybe they cannot be fixed but we can pray for their wholeness in this lifetime or beyond. It is what makes us compassionate human beings. The father of my child is an N and I do not wish him any ill. I really don't. He has been destructive and hurtful, but for my son and for myself, I do not wish him ill because I do not want that in my heart.
The problem with this learned behavior is that they are so good at doing it that we are unable to see that it is not real nor genuine. We have a difficult time accepting that people actually exist on this earth void of real emotion.
We tend to listen through words far more than watch the behaviors or our loved one. We hear the sweetness, charm and beautiful flow of his voice and mistake this for a true feeling of Love when it is not. It is merely a mimicked response to something that they have learned from a previous experience. This leaves us utterly confused.
Our minds want us to believe that what we are told is in fact real. I mean People say what they mean right? Well most do but not all. And people with NPD do not say what they truly feel from an emotional standpoint period. They say what they must in order to fill what ever need they are lacking at that particular time.
I am often asked "so this whole relationship was a lie?". Well yes and no. In the grand sceam it was a lie or not real but the Narcissist was not intentionally lying to you. He believes his emotional responses to be real and genuine. The only difference with him is that his motives for displaying love and affection are purely driven by underlying selfish reasons and not a genuine response. He thinks that this is normal. He believes that this is how everyone is. Remember he has never expedience true "Love" and emotion ever in his existence. So it is real to him.
He does what he does because he needs something that you can give him (affection,sex etc). You do what you do because you are responding to your true nature as an empath.
This is cycle of dysfunction is not something we see or are aware is even taking place at the time. So dont get down on yourself for those 15 years. Consider it a life lesson learned. A tough one but I believe that those tough lessons are what direct us to our true purpose in life. And these lessons build our character strength. The "Art of letting go" is probably one of the most difficult so this is a huge accomplishment in my book.
xoxo
My thoughts are in came in to play when some red flags started popping up and still hanging in there and ignoring the flags waving at us in our FACE. Like the first time he was unkind toward me or said something derogatory to me, i should have immediately called him on it and if i was not satisfied with the answer left. So many times i took what he dished out onto me, insults, bad names, telling me to leave his place at midnight when we got home from a a concert and I was so tired I could barely stand up, calling me a lazy pig after I worked in his garden just after flying home from tending to my mothers death and all her affairs .so many signs, and that to me, is low self esteem, not standing up for MYSELF,
I guess its a mix, in my case, abusive childhood, I had no boundaries at all, I had low self esteem somehow and I am very compassioned and forgiving, way too forgiving.
He got my hooked with flattery, he showered me with adoration, with compliments, with passion, with drama, with emotions, it was like in novel for heavens sake.
But when the abuse started, I should have left, but I stayed because I desperately wanted to recreate the honeymoon phase, which never came again of course in that way.
If I had healthy boundaries, I would have left immediatley.
But I believed him, when he blamed me, I believed his lies and excuses, I had no standards.
And I was compassioned, cause he came with his problems, he is so struggled, and he has depressions, and I was way too forgiving, thinking, he really has problems that I could just love away.
Beside the fact that its sick to think, I could love his problems away, his problems are just an excuse to keep your mouth shut and to keep you hooked at the same time.
So yes, I do think, I hadnt a real core self esteem, centered in my inner being, for being a human being. I thought all my life, I have to proof myself.
I think the answer to this is "it depends" for some I believe yes low self esteem may have attracted the Narc. The Narc sees easy prey however lets think about this. The Narc doesnt want your low self esteem. In fact I would venture to say that it is turn off for alot of them. He wants your strentgths for himself. So if you look at No thats not what attracted him.
Have I had low self esteem at different periods of my life YUP! but when I first met the Narc It was a very confident time in my life. I liked who I was had lots of friends and had plenty of attention from boys. For me there was a Charisma about him that was intoxicating. He was mysterious and alluring. During round one I actually felt in the beginning that I had the upper hand. I felt like I was the more attractive and outgoing out of the two of us. He could be so romantic and sweet it was like I couldnt get enough of him. He told me amazing sweet things that I loved to hear. It seemed genuine and real. He was the perfect mix of romantic yet rugged and masculine and I always enjoyed snagging a guy that was a bit of a challenge.
So do I think that low self esteem brought the Narc into my life NOPE! I had something he wanted. Some quality or look that he liked and thought others liked. For me its not about whether or not you have low self esteem. To me that is completely irrelevent. The fact is a con man targeted you as prey. It could happen to anyone anywhere anytime if you have something they like or want. The problem is you have no idea or comprehension that there are people who are predatory towards other humans out there posing as "normal". I mean when you first read about Narcissism it seems almost like science fiction. If you are normal healthy person you will perceive them as normal healthy people. There is no way to tell. By the time you figure out whats happening you are already in the vortex and if you didnt have low self esteem going into the relationship you will coming out of it. So what if any role does low self esteem play in this, In my opinion it effects how fast you are able to exit the relationship. The longer you stay the more of your esteem that goes and the lower your self esteem plunges the more you feel helpless. It just one big vicious circle.
To me I have seen people on here that are on the brink. I mean really on the brink. The last thing they should feel is guilt that it may have been some issue or low self esteem that caused this to happen to them. What happened to them is a vicious predator decided he had something they liked and wanted for themselves and he brutally attacked them to get it. I look at like this... Did a girl who wore a short tight skirt ask to be raped? Would it have happened had she had something more conservative on? possibly
Just my 2 cents.
The more I think about i...
I think different things motivate different Narcs. I think some are completely freakin lazy and finding someone with the low self esteem means the path of least resistance. For others taking down an attractive, successful,confident woman is huge supply for them. Its like eating the best steak in town. Its a Narcs nature to want the best of everything.
For me Im trying to have positive self talk that says I am an attractive, confident successful woman of course he wanted me.
My mother in aw said the same thing to me today. He wanted to marry you because you were everything he was not and could not be. I don't really get it? I feel so dumb, but I think he flat out used me until I said "That's it." That would be me making boundries for myself. I deserve better!
you did nothing to deserve to be attack by a hungry predator. To me it makes sense. Narcs feel entitled its one of their core characteristics of course they want the best they feel entitled to it.
Do I have low self esteem now? Yup. He stole it for himself. So I have to build it back up slowly little by little and for me it starts with having positive self talk. I am attractive,confiedent successful woman and telling myself its not my fault that I was targeted by a freak. It may not be for everyone but I just can allow the Narc to project anymore of his low self esteem on me
I hope I can get back to where I was before he reentered my life but somedays I just dont know.
This is a tricky area lol
I do believe that some people with strong self esteems can still get hooked and duped by these charmers.....but I honestly believe that someone with a strong self esteem would walk away at the FIRST or maybe even SECOND unacceptable behaviour of the narc.
For me, I always thought I had a healthy self esteem but put up with stuff because of my high level of compassion and forgiveness.
But now, I see that it really was my self-esteem and self value that lacked. I did not trust MYSELF. I let him make me believe I was "over reacting" or "too sensitive".
This would not have happened if I had a strong sense of self. I would have said NO. This is NOT right or acceptable and I will not allow myself to be treated in this way. I would have never second guessed myself or thought maybe my expectations were to high.
We can be strong, compassionate, successful etc....but ultimately what it boils down to is that if don't have a strong sense of self, then you are more prone to stay in these relationships. You could still be duped initially, but when the first or second blip in their behaviour happens, you'd walk.
That's what I think anyways.
I wanted a "love feeling" due to my loveless marriage I just left. Also, I have abondoment issues so I knew he would need me because I was stable. Maybe I thought he was safe cuz he was a loser?
Not sure why?? Just thinking....
You might be on to something in terms of thinking that you could have the upper hand and thus have some "control" I too saw myself above the Narc, but I saw him as "lovable" and "affectionate" and so I overlooked a lot of things saying that the "material" isn't as important - it's who he was as a person and how "humble" he was...hmmmm little did I know, he was playing me like a friggin piano...
You may have thought he was safe cause he was a "loser" but unfortunately a lot of losers compensate for thier loser status with "good game"
And hence, we find ourselves here....
But, we will rise above it all - they still will be losers.
Always valid, but I think we can put far too much emphasis on it. For example it is a Narcs justification that they can't help but brain you because they have HIGH self esteem and so are just helping you out.
But, we feel our self esteem must therefore be damaged? Well no, it is just healthier to not believe you are always right, and of course the Narc takes advantage.
Negative conditiong, socialization, and the Narc Society we live in that on some level all of us have bought into on an EGO level are the issues we really need to address more than just simplifying it into a self esteem problem.
Anyway I think this is what you are getting at here Briseis? Hope this is not too jumbled, would like to expand on it but I have to run.
I am not disagreeing with any of the self esteem issues, but have just been trying to expand on it (to myself) lately, but am having a bit of trouble articulating it.
This is what I found with myself, so may not relate to others.
Anyway, after two pretty rough relationships, I did enough soul searching and work on myself to be what I consider fairly well rounded. I could spot a certain kind of behavior, and working in a male dominated work environment, it is amazing how some men go straight into the controlling behavior without even being romantically attached. Usually I allowed them a couple of hits before calling them on it, and there have been a couple that went into Narc rages over it. I simply had their number and they knew it.
But in a relationship, we are emotionally bonded to them. What hurts them hurts us. So we try to fix "their" hurt. Why don't we say "FUCK OFF"? It is not in our nature with a person we feel responsible for.
But more than this, I give a lot of blame on this one to my own ego. In the beginning, the whirlwind romance, I was such a wonderful person , I WANTED IT BACK!!! But in retrospect, I look back at how utterly ridiculous it all was. How can a man say or mean these things when he does not know you intimately. OK, he watched and learned what made me tick and found the chinks in my armor, but to believe that he knew me intimately on a deep emotional level is ludicrous. But I believed it because my EGO said it had to be true.
My EGO also tried to convince me that I could fix him when the going got rough. Who the hell did I really think I was? I always called him on bad behaviour, but every act of forgiveness only teaches them what they can now get away with.
I know that part is I didn't know about personality disorders, but the truth is, underneath it all, I KNEW. It was one of the first things that I had to forgive myself for. I knew in those early red flags that this guy was really a prize a/hole, yet I did it anyway. I gave myself a severe ass kicking for that one. Why didn't I listen to myself? Because I wanted to be that SUPER woman that could save an a/hole from himself. THAT was MY ego.
To add to this post, my earlier relationships were much more related to self esteem issues.
Okay, I totally get what you're saying about the "ego" and how the ego led you to make certain decisions even when the cognitive mind told you otherwise...you saw he was an a/hole...right?
SO...we could call it huge ego to think we can "fix" someone or "rescue" someone or the need to be "superwoman"
BUT...here is the argument...who was this being proven to? To want to be superwoman...for who? For you? Society? The Narc? What drove the desire to be superwoman, or to heal someone...we can argue ego...but in having those desires, could that not be driven by a weak ego and so we try to compensate by over doing something to prove our worth?
AND what is that called...our worth? Isn't that self esteem?
SO who were we doing these things for it doesn't matter be it to prove to the self or others... there is still a DEFICIT and it boils down to the self esteem.
Kick it back Nancy
Because I'm really fascinated by this whole thread...I too did not think I had low self esteem when I first met the narc...now, I'm jello but will make a comeback; however, if it's not low self esteem, then what is the source of tolerating abusive behavior...clearly we did not think too much of ourselves because I believe we would have set higher boundaries.
What seems to be happening is we are trying to find a ton of different ways to express low self esteem without using that word...call it issues with setting boundaries - okay, what's the source of that? Call it being an empath- oh we just take in so much feeling for others....well, what about the lack of warm fuzzies for OURSELVES in the first place...
So for me, don't matter how you slice it, what you call it, what filler one adds...it's still at the source, an issue of self esteem / self WORTH
Glad you want to keep talking because it gets my gray matter going, though I tend to go off track sometimes, so pull me up on anything I am not clarifying.
Firstly, the nature of an Empath is to put everyone else first. It is embedded into their very nature, and they get a lot of satisfaction by being able to bring relief to another persons suffering. But the over emphasis that this is because of lack of self esteem,I think is NOT correct. So many of us never learned how to care for ourselves first, but not for reasons of thinking we were not worth it, but for reasons that there were others needing our help. If we look at it from a genetic perspective, nature probably threw us up to compensate for the Narcs in the system, so really we are the polar opposites.
Added to this, I am probably suffering from ADDpi which is only self diagnosed at this point, but I have all the characteristics. I have an insatiable curiosity, and I consider myself to be bloody smart without trying to sound like a Narc. No that does not mean I am never wrong which is why I like talking things like this out, to broaden my own perspectives. Also my faith in my own intelligence was one thing the Ns in my life never had me doubting, so that suggests to me that my self esteem wasn't too bad. OK in the thick of it I was doubting myself, but I did not stay there too long.
I do not conform hugely with society, I rarely dress up and even rarer do I wear makeup. This has never particularly bothered me, I consider that I am what I am, and have rolled with it. I am not saying there is anything wrong with this, i am just saying my value system is a little different. Finding out about the ADD answered a lot for me and my quirks, but I have been told that I am very high functioning because I manage my life pretty well.(apart from being a Narc magnet) I did go through the ...if I was prettier/sexier thing, but really I knew there was much much more to it. What the hell was it that turned these people into monsters? But I never fathomed that Narcissism was the answer. When I first started looking at Narc info, there was not a lot around, and the descriptions were pretty basic. I really thought the world needed this information. But not being up to speed on all of it, I really could not protect myself or pull away.
One of the up sides of being an ADD sufferer, is I am able to kind of sit outside a situation and observe it while I am actually in the thick of interacting. It is because of this weird way of being able to run several thought patterns at the same time. I formed a lot of conclusions on what was happening, i just had absolutely no idea that it was sooo widespread. But yeah, I was actually studying HIM.
So curiosity also played a large part, I really wanted those answers, and if I had found a resource like this board I would have been out a lot sooner. I still don't think it was my self esteem that kept me there, but he was wearing it down. I needed to KNOW what this thing was. Some people have suggested that I can be insightful about this stuff, but really, it was what I was observing and mentally recording first hand. That is not to say I did not experience the breakdown during this time...I did, but by the time I found real help, I was already on the way out because I knew it wasn't me.
My Narc picked me for my intelligence, I have absolutely no doubt. The funniest thing was he actually tried to copy some of my ADD quirks which I found bloody hilarious when I found out. He is cerebral to the nth degree.
Ok had to add that in to just kind of clarify where I am coming from. Now back to the self esteem part.
The reason I do not like all the focus on self esteem, is that society is so focused on this that it becomes a Narc heaven. They are the ones that prance around with the whole I love me thing happening, and the rest of us are supposed to follow. My emphasis is on SELF period. That is actually getting to know yourself, warts and all. None of us are ever taught to do that. I know your going to say this is self esteem, and I am trying to find a way of explaining the difference.
self esteem=I am pretty enough, smart enough sexy enough, yada yada ya.
Self= I am
I am probably going to stop here for now because I need to find a better explanation. ;) comment away.
I really love kicking the back and forth with you...
Okay, you said:
Firstly, the nature of an Empath is to put everyone else first. It is embedded into their very nature, and they get a lot of satisfaction by being able to bring relief to another persons suffering. But the over emphasis that this is because of lack of self esteem,I think is NOT correct. So many of us never learned how to care for ourselves first, but not for reasons of thinking we were not worth it, but for reasons that there were others needing our help.
And I follow you on that point BUT, how did the empath develop that nature? Granted, some it just may be the nature they were born with but for others, I think it became a required behavior for survivial or a learned behavior. With the exeption of say, someone BORN an empath - if we look at people who became empaths from learned/environmental behaviors...this intrinsicly was not their TRUE nature, but learned, so on some level, there has to be some push pull within. So that brings us to the people you mention who never learned how to care for ourselves first...the learned/enviornmental empaths...if they were never taught, somwhere along the line, they had to equally get the message the were not worthy. If you have the message you are not worthy then would that not result in low self esteem? I hold the opinion that a learned/environmental empath is predestined to have low self esteem merely by the fact that they become conditioned to believe they are not worthy of looking out for self because they have to put others first - they are the caretakers. This is not the same as say a family who lives by the code that you help those less fortunate etc...to develop into an empath I am compelled to argue in MOST cases is not healthy in origin because healthy would say, yes, help others, but help yourself first for if you drown you are useless to others. So this is where I even have a problem with the "empath" theory, because as women, I think we all have that nurturing loving nature - and we talked about this on another post - even religion has worked it into the code that this is a woman's role - to be subsurvient, put others ahead of themselves be self sacrificing etc...and NO - I don't agree it's healthy. So I still feel that even if we want to call it something else, the root is still in self esteem BUT....
I note your other comparison which I do get
self esteem=I am pretty enough, smart enough sexy enough, yada yada ya.
Self= I am
For me however, in the semantics, I don't think self esteem is so much about being enough. In your use of semantics, if I understand you correctly - and clarify if I'm wrong...
Self Esteem is more of the "petty" values society holds
vs. SELF being the total awarness of one self the good and the bad.
For me in a semantic sense, self esteem is the equivalent to your term SELF.
Do I understand what you're saying?
For me the self esteem includes not only the "I'm bright enough, pretty enough, smart enough etc...but also the self awareness of those things that are lacking but accepting of them that it's all good and its what makes me ME.
And I really need a grammar and spell check Vainencounters gods...LOL
I don't know if you got to read Briseis post before you wrote this, but yes, I think it comes down to the semantics of the term. Also, like I wrote in my first post on this, for me their was a time that self esteem did play a large role in my repeated abusive patters, but I guess what I was trying to get at is I was motivated by something else towards the end. As for the Empath thingy, i have some thoughts on that but I have not got time to do it now so will get back to you on it. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Wow quite the thinker aren't you;) i mean that in a good way.
Hopping in here, goodness what a monster thread . . . I think the term "self esteem" has been over used to the point no one can agree on what it means anymore.
When you put it the way you did . . . as SELF emphasis, the peanut gallery in my head shouted YES!!!
Emphasis on Self. Which to me includes the gamut of self valuing, self knowledge (good, bad and warty), self expression, healthy interpersonal boundaries, self care.
On another forum I read about something called "The 51%Rule". Since we acknowledge we are empathic, and tend to see OTHER people's needs or POV before our own, we need to establish a healthy balance. Keeping our emphasis on ourSELF 51% of the time is, at least, a step toward a better balance.
When the Narc and I were beginning our relationship, my emphasis was not on my Self nearly enough. Honestly, I didn't even know it was THERE, that's how out of balance I was. I grew up this way. I was violently punished by a Narc father for sticking my growing Self out. That's my story. But not everyone's.
So what else is the enemy of the Self? Culture can be. A "self" is promoted as the self you SHOULD be, or should want to be.
A person's "natural self" is devalued. Never good enough, must be hidden away or disguised. I don't think anyone escapes this. The culture sanctioned "self" is IMPOSSIBLE, it is an ideal that cannot exist in real life. Until a person knows that, they are in thrall to it (our children, unfortunately). A person in thrall to an impossible "image" of self is by definition having "low self esteem."
You have just written what I was trying to explain, but was still rolling around in my head. I should have known I could depend on you. Are you really sure your not me? LMAO
But when the first signs of the Narc..."Braining" you takes place, what then is the source for one not simply saying "fuck off" what causes us to continue to stay with someone who begins to display errant thinking?
High self esteem would find one saying, I reject what you're doing that is not my truth. Change, stop or be gone!
Instead, we stay. Why? Our self esteem tells us, we're so much greater and more powerful and can overcome this?
If that were the truth, then why are we here in shambles?
Yes, the abuse would cause low self esteem in one who had high self esteem; however, before the abuse got out of control, something caused us to stay and allowed it to escalate.
I have really struggled with this lately. I had a guy recently e-mail me from Florida and tell me he was quitting without notice. He said he hoped that he wasn't burning any bridges. This was a nice kid who worked for me for a year and I had no idea he wasn't happy in his job. I showed no mercy. I cut off all his system access, e-mailed him a stock farewell letter and didn't think twice about him, other than to be pissed that someone would be so unprofessional.
With the narc however, he acted like a complete and utter unprofessional a-hole for three months during the end of his employment and I let it go on and on because I was so desperate to please him. WHY? I've done the same with two other narcs (both women, not romances) in my life. Usually, I let no one get away with anything. But with narcs? Is it because my mother is one? The idealization is so strong and I believed the BS.
I don't know. I really wish I understood this. I would have spared me a lot of grief.
The abuse is covert. It goes on a long time before you really understand that that is what happened. There are no visible signs that you can point to and say look at the brusies. The abuse is subtle for a long time and escalates ever so slowly
sorry Michele
empathy... I am sorry but
this post from Betty sums it up for me
hi Briseis
I can speak only for myself
Well...
Hi sick of it....
you do deserve better
This is a tricky area lol I
Michelle115
Blueeyes
Mo doubt
Self esteem
Nevergoback
Expanding on this......
Nevergoback
Nancy
Self
Nevergoback
Nancy
semantics
Nevergoback
Right now...
NancyM
Ahhh Briseis
Nevergoback
NancyM
Nancy
Low Self Esteem
The abuse is covert. It goes
Breseis