Early Warning Signs

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#1 Oct 22 - 12AM

MsVulcan500

Early Warning Signs

Here is a good article I found about the early warning signs of an abuser. They usually will not come right out and tell you, but they will give signs if you are paying attention.

http://psychjourney_blogs.typepad.com/effective_self_defense_fo/2009/01/...

#2 Oct 26 - 5PM

Susan32

"Victimized by beautiful women"

Really. That's how the ex-Psych professor rationalized his behavior towards me. He portrayed himself as the poor victim of lovely ladies. He gave me the sob story of beautiful women taking advantage of him. All the while he was ogling males. Some Ns/Ps purposefully hurt women by ogling other women... the ex-P ogled other men.

#3 Oct 25 - 5AM

jen79

MS VULCAN

This is the most fascinating article I have ever read on that topic. WOW! What a insight! Espcecially this last explanation, on why we attract them, I never heard this version before, and I totally love this one, cause it doesnt "blame" us. WOW WOW. Thanks for sharing, I needed to read that today.

#4 Oct 24 - 6PM

Susan32

Fascination with suicide

The ex-Psych professor's favorite authors all had a thing about suicide. John Kennedy Toole killed himself;Leo Tolstoy contemplated suicide,as did Ludwig Wittgenstein (a few of his brothers did commit suicide);Arthur Schopenhauer called suicide the highest act of the will. A pretty disturbing pattern. He'd say during class discussions (after my grandfather died),"If you're so unhappy, why don't you kill yourself?" He once said blithely, "I'm destroying myself." That's why the recent death of a classmate (who stayed behind to be a professor of music) was REALLY REALLY triggering.. so much so it sent me here. She was my former lab partner;the ex-P caused a rivalry between us, ending our nascent friendship. She believed all his lies about me. Her father died a few years ago. She was found dead in her sleep... a cause was never given. I read of a female student at my alma mater who was expelled simply because she was anorexic and depressed. She needed HELP, not expulsion. One of the ex-P's favorite books is John Kennedy Toole's "Confederacy of Dunces." The lead character, Ignatius, is addicted to food (he's quite fat), lives with his mother (and terrorizes her), takes advantage of people, is homophobic, lashes out at what he calls "obscenity" tho it turns him on, and spends his days masturbating&plotting against people. The ex-P even admitted to me in a TMI moment early on that he spent his days plotting against people who had slighted him, and yes, um, self-pleasuring. (Speaking of self-fulfilling prophecies, his parents moved in with him 9 years ago) John Kennedy Toole was quite paranoid towards the end of his life,so much so he was removed from teaching at a university. His students found his behavior creepy. He claimed that people were stealing his manuscripts&selling them... an accusation the ex-P launched at me early on. He claimed that an article of his I had seen online (it's still online, and Jen79 managed to heroically soldier thru 2 pages of it)-he claimed that I was making copies, selling it to people, and mocking him. I've never known anyone SO PARANOID.

#5 Oct 23 - 5PM

Susan32

"I don't understand music"

This was a strange red flag early on. Music is a common subject, no matter who you're with. We'll joke about radio stations at work, make fun of certain songs ("I'm more than just a number, hey, hey, hey") But with the ex-Psych professor, trying to talk about music as an icebreaker was... awkward. I might as well have been speaking in Esperanto. He talked about liking jazz, but he couldn't mention specific genres or musicians. Once, he said "I don't understand music." That pretty much summed him up.

#6 Oct 22 - 10PM

almostlydia

Great article, almost a

Great article, almost a checklist for going out there in the world again, in case we should forget. This was excellent. Thanks. almostlydia

almostlydia

#7 Oct 22 - 6PM

michele115 (not verified)

RE: Early Warning Signs

I've been so traumatized, for me the only sign is a breathing man.

#8 Oct 24 - 6PM (Reply to #29)

chickon2

michele115

I've been so traumatized, for me the only sign is a breathing man. I know this wasn't supposed to be funny.. BUT i spit my water out.. siigh.. HUGS

#9 Oct 22 - 3PM

anonymous

Multiple Victimization

I liked this part and it kind of goes along with the self-esteem thread of late, "Multiple-Victimization Research shows that if a woman has been mistreated in the past, even in childhood, there's a good chance that she'll be mistreated in her next relationship as well. It's called, "multiple-victimization," and it is often misunderstood. I have heard far too many women clients say things like, "I could walk into a room full of doctors and therapists and fall in love with the one criminal." Or they ask with sad and bewildered eyes, "Why do I only attract resentful, angry, and abusive partners?" They wonder if they put out signals that say, "Please abuse me!" This particular misconception has even infected a few professionals who have ridiculously theorized that some women "want to be abused." If you've experienced multiple-victimization, please understand this: The problem is not that you attract only resentful, angry, or abusive suitors; it's that, by and large, you have not been receptive to the gentler, more respectful men you also attract. This is not due to your temperament or personality; it's a normal defensive reaction. After you've been hurt, of course you'll put up subtle barriers for self-protection. Non-abusive men will recognize and respect those barriers. For example, suppose that you work with someone who's attracted to you. But he senses that you're uncomfortable with his small gestures for more closeness. He will naturally back off and give you time to heal, or he'll settle for a non-romantic friendship. But a man who is likely to mistreat you will either not recognize your barriers or completely disregard them. He will continue to hit on you, until he breaks down the protective walls that surround your hungry heart." The last two sentence are chilling because that's what happened in my case.

#10 Oct 25 - 5PM (Reply to #27)

Susan32

Mistreatment

I was bullied a lot in elementary and middle school. In high school, I retaliated against a girl who bullied me FOR NO REASON (on top of that, her boyfriend had robbed me) by starting a rumor that I saw her making out with the paunchy, nearly toothless janitor. I told her best friends first. She had lied, claiming I had disturbed her during an important phone call (I had walked by, minding my own business) I had teachers who were bullies. But I knew how to protect myself. At college, I found myself with like-minded people. I felt safe for the first time... so the barriers came down. The ex-Psych professor honed in on the fact that I was grieving my grandfather, he pretended to care, and since he was a teacher, I naturally trusted him. If a classmate had acted the same way he did... I would've dropped him in a second.

#11 Oct 22 - 7PM (Reply to #23)

onwithmylife

Morty

these last two sentences are exactly what happen to me as well, he was in hot pursuit of me till I felt so flattered I gave in and my marriage was crumbling we were like roomies, nothing more and here came this man ready to sweep me off my feet and like a fool, I let him do it!

#12 Oct 22 - 7PM (Reply to #24)

anonymous

On with My Life - We're Not the Only Ones

At least we can take some solace in that fact - I can think of at least 5 other women on this board who were in loveless marriages who were targeted by narcs. No excuses but I suspect this situation is a lot more common than we think. The husband doesn't get that marriage is a 50/50 deal. He thinks it's all hers to fix. Narc is the opposite and doesn't get that life's not 100% about him. Root cause of all of this - men are entitled. Even the good ones.

#13 Oct 22 - 9PM (Reply to #26)

almostlydia

I am number 6 unless I was

I am number 6 unless I was already in the first 5:) almostlydia

almostlydia

#14 Oct 22 - 8PM (Reply to #25)

onwithmylife

morty

You are so right on,men are so entitled, and it is all because of a penis in spite of dear old womens liberation, it still seems to be a MANS WORLD........................We women are the ones who try and fix everything that men have screwed up! somehow I did not think I was alone and that is comforting to hear although does that mean I can retrieve 15 years of my life?!

#15 Oct 22 - 4PM (Reply to #21)

better off

Yes, that was a great

Yes, that was a great section also... that normal men respect boundaries and pull back.. it's the boundary pushers that keep working on you until you give in. That's also what happened to me. Looking back to the first month of things in my sitch, I did some serious pulling back and pulling away and he just kept changing tactics until he had me hooked. The first time I was serious about walking away from him.. he referred to that as The Wall. I always found that a little odd that he talked about it like that, when I put up The Wall, and that he was always trying to be careful I didn't put up The Wall again. Well, I was married. That should have been the FIRST wall, duh.. and when I felt we were getting too close, I got nervous about it and walked away... he came back to me later claiming he'd just gotten carried away and there wasn't any reason we couldn't be friends.. we could still talk at least, right? There didn't need to be The Wall. And I accepted that (mistake!). He didn't accept the boundary and he got me to question it myself. (Oh, and he wrote a song about me...) Then within weeks of talking round the clock and sharing all our inner life, I was completely in love with him and had finally lost my sense of judgment, which led to further boundary crossing... and I did believe we were soulmates and at that point, psychologically there are no boundaries anymore.

#16 Oct 22 - 7PM (Reply to #22)

anonymous

Better Off

Oh and here I was thinking I was da bomb because my narc wrote a song (actually two) about me. Sniff, awwww..... must mean he REEEEEEEALLLLY loooooovves meeeee only can't deal with all these FEELINGS! Shee-at! Yours wrote one about you too?!? Hmm, I'm so let down to know that I ain't so special. =)

#17 Oct 22 - 3PM

onwithmylife

Liked the article

could relate to so much, earlier on he use to put down and criticize wife #3 and now look who is to blame for the failure of our relationship, and the part about pettiness was great, he made such a big deal over the trivia of some of my hair left in the bathtub, big deal after all i did for him and he could have wiped it up and thrown it away in the toilet without saying a peep, but no, it was a BIG production, what an idiot Thanks for sharing Miss Vulcan

#18 Oct 22 - 2PM

Steph

I love this

I love this article. Sometimes it takes years for a man to become physically violent so it's so important to know the very early warning signs. I was with mine for one year and he displayed all of these....and physical abuse was already starting...a push, a grab. Thanks for posting this.

#19 Oct 22 - 11AM

better off

Great article. I think the

Great article. I think the tough thing is that a lot of true predators go to great lengths to conceal these things about themselves at the beginning. I think the Rushing and Minor Jealousy are the easiest to spot with someone who's really hiding who they are. I found the part about predatory self-esteem interesting.. that when everyone else's self-esteem is low, the abuser's is high. And when the family heals and their self-esteem goes UP, the abuser's goes DOWN. Wow. That says it all.

#20 Oct 22 - 12PM (Reply to #6)

Briseis

That IS a good point about

That IS a good point about the predatory self esteem. That's why EVERYTHING felt like some kind of competition with him. I remember a time right after we moved to the farm where I went into a severe depression that lasted for months. He was pretty mild with me, even accomodating, and I was irritable and acted out verbally. After I started feeling better, I was ashamed of myself, and amazed at how long he had gone without . . . being "himself". He was not triggered himself, was comfortable with me, when I was just sitting there suffering. He WAS on top, but surprisingly, didn't lord it over me like he usually did. That's because he didn't HAVE to lol. We couldn't be "good" together. He couldn't be "good together" with anyone, he had to be a notch better. And if he perceived someone a notch above him, he had to maneuver to get back on top (whatever it took).

#21 Oct 22 - 4PM (Reply to #8)

better off

Patricia Evans has written a

Patricia Evans has written a lot of good stuff about the one-up, one-down thing in the abuser's mentality. There can't BE an equal relationship, they cannot conceive of it. If they aren't the one UP, then they are the one DOWN. That's their world view. Only we aren't aware of it and are in constant confusion about what is going on? How they can perceive us as trying to "win," etc. They do NOT understand cooperation and creation, only domination. And if they aren't the dominator, then in their mind they must make them the dominated. I went thru this with my husband... it was like, someone had to have the upper hand. If I DIDN'T have the upper hand, then he would. I didn't WANT the upper hand, I didn't even want to PLAY, I just wanted to have an equal normal relationship, but if I didn't keep the upper hand, he'd have it over me. We have bridged that gap with counseling, etc. Because my H didn't even know he was doing it. It was subconscious. Dragging it into the open has helped him see past it, that we are not in a damn CONTEST. But that's because he's not a narcissist. He could change his behavior and get away from the patterns he grew up with.

#22 Oct 22 - 8PM (Reply to #9)

hooklineandsinker

OMG when mine was dumping me

OMG when mine was dumping me and I was asking him where in the world these negative feelings of his had come from, that they were total news to me, etc etc he said sarcastically "everything was fine as long as you were in front and I was behind you". I was genuinely mystified by this and said "There was no in front or behind - we were a COUPLE, for god's sake" I was genuinely confused as to where all this bullcrap had suddenly come from, because he said not ONE WORD about feeling like this, or thinking that this was our dynamic, for 8 frickin' months with me. But that must be what it was - the one-upmanship. One-upmanship that you DON'T EVEN KNOW IS ON THE AGENDA. Talk about constantly moving the goalposts. It was like having a rug pulled from under me when I didn't even know there was a rug there. And that's exactly what I emailed to him a few days later, long before I even knew about NPD.

#23 Oct 22 - 8PM (Reply to #17)

anonymous

Hookline - Betrayal

I read a really good definition of betrayal with respect to relationships that I posted on here once ... I can't recall which book it was from but the basic gyst is: betrayal is when a unilaterial decision is made when the other person in the relationship didn't even know a decision was on the table. Yep, I got the competition crap too. As you know, we worked together ... and he came out one day with, "sometimes I feel you and I are in competition with one another at the office." I was like, huh? I like what Better Off wrote about this up and down crap going on in their heads all the time and we don't even know it. Can you imagine the interference that runs through their brains at all hours? That's why mine baked his head every night - to "calm his brain". Weirdo.

#24 Oct 22 - 8PM (Reply to #10)

hooklineandsinker

And, betteroff, I didn't

And, betteroff, I didn't want to play either. All I wanted was to continue with the loving, mutual relationship I thought I had with him. I didn't even know that we WERE playing. That's what so effing unfair about these people - they make up all these secret rules for themselves and you and the relationship and never even tell you about them, and then they judge you according to their secret rules without any notice to you that this is what they are actually doing. It's SO GODDAM UNFAIR AND UNJUST AND INSANE I COULD SCREAM.

#25 Oct 22 - 8PM (Reply to #16)

Susan32

Liverpool

It's a card game my Narc grandmother plays... or used to play. I remember playing it with her, and it was insane. I know the rules for Crazy 8's, Hearts, but this one, she CHANGED the rules every round... and it was to her advantage. I felt the same way with the ex-Psych professor, tho it wasn't an innocuous,harmless card game. I thought he was the director who kept changing the script on me--and I kept "failing" because I didn't know my lines-when I didn't have the script in the first place(!!) In the end, I wanted to improvise, I didn't give a damn about his script. The ex-P thought he was ENTITLED to play his games because he was the teacher, I was the student, that it was unequal anyhow. He thought that since he was the superior, he could call all the shots. He'd probably still justify his unfair treatment because I was the student, he was the teacher. I think he secretly hated the thought that as soon as I graduated... I was no longer beholden to him as a student, and that I'd see him as an equal anyhow. He loved the authority of being a teacher.

#26 Oct 22 - 8PM (Reply to #11)

hooklineandsinker

But then, even if you're the

But then, even if you're the one who's "down" (or "behind" in his parlance) and they feel like they're dominating and controlling you, they come to hate you anyway, no? Please say yes. I so want this to happen to the new one because I know she's about a million times more submissive than me, and I don't want it to be her passport to happiness with him. I want him to start treating her like crap, no matter how submissive and passive she is. I want her to suffer too. Sorry, but I do.

#27 Oct 23 - 3AM (Reply to #15)

Briseis

The more submissive you are,

The more submissive you are, the more contempt the Narc has for you. Narcs live in terror of their own powerlessness. It is so ironic that they can only "tolerate" submissive behavior on the part of another person, yet loathe submissiveness because it is their greatest fear. I am not a submissive person by nature, but in that first year I deliberately squashed myself down, believing it would return the Narc to that initial "goodness". He had me convinced that my natural personality was irritating (to everyone) and that I came across as personality disordered. The more submissive I got, the worse he treated me. If she's a million times more submissive than you, she will suffer more because of it. She is one of us, here on the board, another Narc victim. Feeling "unkind thoughts" toward her is kind of missing the point :D You were probably the OW to the woman prior to you. HE deserves those unkind thoughts, for what he did to you and all the other victims he's had. The victims are victims, no matter how much they gloat and preen at first. They are IN FOR IT :(

#28 Oct 22 - 8PM (Reply to #13)

anonymous

They Come to Hate You No Matter What

Because remember - in the beginning, you are idealized because you are an extension of their image of themselves. They see in you what they believe about themselves. They look at you as if they're looking in the mirror and seeing the perfect image they've created in their own mind of themselves. It has nothing to do with you. Or her, or any of their targets. They pick you because of traits you have that they believe they have - and they're admirable traits (beauty, strength, intelligence, whatever). But then, you, at some point, have the audacity to show that you are a separate person, not an image. It could be something drastic, like you stand up to him in a spat or something as minor as a glance that they don't like. Whatever it is, that's when they start to devalue. They ridicule you because they're pissed off at you for being a separate person - not their idealized image. His tirade on the ski slope was all about devaluation. Then, they discard you. Sometimes this takes a long time and sometimes it's quick. In my case, my ex-narc blathered on during the relationship about not wanting to color my decisions about my family life. He said he wanted me to make my own choices. This was when he was projecting the 'good guy' image. In my case the devaluation only lasted three days (thank goodness for small favors, I guess). And it started when I wrote him an e-mail and said that I wanted to make sure I was making decisions about my family life because they were what I felt were the right thing, not because I was trying to please him. In other words, I said exactly what he had been telling me I should do all along. However, - he didn't REALLY want me to do that. He really wanted me to do whatever it was that HE said I should do. That's when the devaulation started. And even though I'm thankful it was of a short duration - it also made it so very hard to understand because I was literally blindsided by it. I'll take that any day, however, compared to the pervasive long-term devaluation and sick abuse some of the ladies on this board have had to endure. If they show emotion during the discarding, like mine did, it's not because they're sad about what they're doing to you or because they're sad about the relationship ending. It's because they know what they are deep down inside and that depravity would make anyone cry or lash out. He will do this to every woman he has a 'relationship' with. No matter what she's like. With a submissive one, the devaluation phase will probably take longer, be more pervasive, and more abusive. And while I understand your hatred toward her, it's counter-productive to yourself. I'm saying this with the utmost care and sensitivity toward you. Not because I don't understand. (((Hookline)))

#29 Oct 22 - 9PM (Reply to #14)

onwithmylife

The d and d comes no matter what

So true, morty, afte so many years when i wrote him a letter after he moved away to another state, a kind letter asking him why the relationship was all about him and what about me and my wants, needs and actions speak louder than words, it all fell apart and it was the beginning of the end, 15 freaking years and tossed away like toilet paper...............

#30 Oct 22 - 8PM (Reply to #12)

Susan32

They hate submission too....

The ex-Psych professor held me in contempt when I was submissive towards him as well. He wanted me to be confident-oh, but not TOO confident. He didn't mind seeing me happy-but NOT "too happy." He liked dominating&controlling me... and he held it so much in contempt he'd joke about to his students in class. He'd crack jokes (I found this out through friends, yes, they were in his classes) about how I believed his stories about European vacations. He'd sneer when I was kind to him. He'd snap "you're doing it for you, not for me." I was incredibly submissive... and what is more submissive than telling someone you love them and care about them? That brought about the final, disastrous D&D. Here I was, speaking tender words of love... and he raged, raged, raged.

#31 Oct 22 - 4PM (Reply to #7)

terri

SO true!

This was always a subtle component in our relationship but definitely there and very damaging. I've been trying to understand the dynamic that I always felt - that competitive thing - but this article explains it so beautifully. Whenever I was feeling good about myself, he would ALWAYS find a way to bring me down. How sad.

Believe in yourself!
Terri

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